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WoowyBaby

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@dudefaceguy Here's some 4x4 example solves with your method-
"1. Solve two opposite centers.
2. Solve a 1x3x3 block and a 1x3x4 block (similar to Roux) on the opposite face.
3a. Solve two more corners such that the last 3 corners are out of place, then solve the last 3 corners using a commutator.
3b. Solve the last edge pair of the 1x3x3 block to extend it to a 1x3x4 block.
4. Extend one of the 1x3x4 blocks into a 2x3x4 block by solving one middle slice excluding the top layer.
5. Use the unsolved slice to solve exactly 7 of the remaining 10 edge pieces.
6. Solve the remaining 3 edge pieces and some center pieces with a commutator.
7. Solve the remaining center pieces with 2 or 3 commutators."


Scramble: D2 L R2 F2 L2 R2 D2 B L2 U2 B' U2 B2 F' U' F2 D2 L2 R' U' R Fw2 Rw2 R' B2 D2 Fw2 F L' B Uw2 F D2 B' Uw L2 Uw2 L' B2 Uw' B Rw Fw B Uw2 U Fw2
x2
R2 f r U2 r' U R' y r U2 r' z // 2 Opposite Centers (10)
R U R2 L U' r' U' F' L2 F // Red 1x3x3 (10)
R2 U' r L F' L D L2 U R' U' r2 R' F R2 F' R' U R2 U' R2 U' R U r' U2 R U R' U' R y D' R U' R' D // Orange 1x3x4 (36)
y U2 R' F2 R F' R' F2 R2 U R' // Corners (10)
U' R l L R2 D' R2 L2 U R' // Remaining Edge (10)
2R U 2R' m' U m' D2 U m' U m D2 2R U' 2L2 U2 m2 U 2L' U2 2L m U2 m' 2R2 U' 2R2 U m U2 m2 U2 m 2R2 U 2R2 U' m' U2 m // Left M slice (40)
U2 2R U2 2R2 U' 2R2' U2 2R U2 2R2 U 2R' r U R' U' 2R' U R U' R' // Solve 7/10 Edges (21)

// Non-Intuitive Near-Impossible L3E Commutator
// Non-Intuitive Near-Impossible Last 12 Centers Commutators
137 STM + ~40-50 for the rest = 180 ish

This method is extremely difficult to solve with, not for beginners whatsoever, requires a very high level understanding of the cube, many parts are too complex to do efficiently.
I spent actually over an hour on the solve, because how complicated it is.
Algorithms are easier to understand than commutators.
I actually know exactly how commutators work, and have lots of experience on 3x3, but I didn't grasp this.
Even in your own video you struggled near the end to solve using your own method.

This is an interesting method, maybe just not for me :p
Maybe other people will like it though :)
 
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dudefaceguy

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@dudefaceguy Here's some 4x4 example solves with your method-
"1. Solve two opposite centers.
2. Solve a 1x3x3 block and a 1x3x4 block (similar to Roux) on the opposite face.
3a. Solve two more corners such that the last 3 corners are out of place, then solve the last 3 corners using a commutator.
3b. Solve the last edge pair of the 1x3x3 block to extend it to a 1x3x4 block.
4. Extend one of the 1x3x4 blocks into a 2x3x4 block by solving one middle slice excluding the top layer.
5. Use the unsolved slice to solve exactly 7 of the remaining 10 edge pieces.
6. Solve the remaining 3 edge pieces and some center pieces with a commutator.
7. Solve the remaining center pieces with 2 or 3 commutators."


Scramble: D2 L R2 F2 L2 R2 D2 B L2 U2 B' U2 B2 F' U' F2 D2 L2 R' U' R Fw2 Rw2 R' B2 D2 Fw2 F L' B Uw2 F D2 B' Uw L2 Uw2 L' B2 Uw' B Rw Fw B Uw2 U Fw2
x2
R2 f r U2 r' U R' y r U2 r' z // 2 Opposite Centers (10)
R U R2 L U' r' U' F' L2 F // Red 1x3x3 (10)
R2 U' r L F' L D L2 U R' U' r2 R' F R2 F' R' U R2 U' R2 U' R U r' U2 R U R' U' R y D' R U' R' D // Orange 1x3x4 (36)
y U2 R' F2 R F' R' F2 R2 U R' // Corners (10)
U' R l L R2 D' R2 L2 U R' // Remaining Edge (10)
2R U 2R' m' U m' D2 U m' U m D2 2R U' 2L2 U2 m2 U 2L' U2 2L m U2 m' 2R2 U' 2R2 U m U2 m2 U2 m 2R2 U 2R2 U' m' U2 m // Left M slice (40)
U2 2R U2 2R2 U' 2R2' U2 2R U2 2R2 U 2R' r U R' U' 2R' U R U' R' // Solve 7/10 Edges (21)

// Non-Intuitive Near-Impossible L3E Commutator
// Non-Intuitive Near-Impossible Last 12 Centers Commutators
137 STM + ~40-50 for the rest = 180 ish

This method is extremely difficult to solve with, not for beginners whatsoever, requires a very high level understanding of the cube, many parts are too complex to do efficiently.
I spent actually over an hour on the solve, because how complicated it is.
Algorithms are easier to understand than commutators.
I actually know exactly how commutators work, and have lots of experience on 3x3, but I didn't grasp this.
Even in your own video you struggled near the end to solve using your own method.

This is an interesting method, maybe just not for me :p
Maybe other people will like it though :)

Wow, thank you very much for testing out this method! I agree that it is definitely not a beginner-friendly method. The intended audience is very specific and possibly includes only myself. It's not meant to be a generally popular or universal method, but rather to fill a specific niche for weirdos like myself by providing a couple of things that I couldn't find in other methods.

The ideal candidate would be someone like myself, who learns Heise for 3x3 because they really REALLY don't like learning algorithms, and then wants to try larger cubes without learning parity algorithms. It also helps if you really REALLY love commutators and enjoy spending lots of time to work out move-optimal solutions. I will often spend a few minutes on a single commutator, trying to save one or two moves or solve one extra piece. This is not necessary of course, but I really enjoy doing it.

I realize that most people will not be looking for these things when selecting a method. But, I couldn't find a method that satisfied by own weird criteria so I made one. I gave absolutely no regard for things that are very important in speedsolving methods, like minimizing rotations, avoiding slice moves, and other ergonomics. Making a big cube method intended for Heise mains is already restricting the intended audience to like 5 people in the world.

Thank you for linking the solve, because I am not good at following notation. The 3/4 slice step was definitely very difficult for me to figure out at first, but it can be done pretty easily. It looked like you were making bars and then pairing them with edge pieces and inserting them, which I tried to do at first also. I've found it to be a lot more efficient to build the 3/4 slice like this:

1. Place the edge in the top layer on the L or R side, oriented such that the color you want to pair is on the U face.
2. Rotate the slices (mostly just the unsolved slice) to join center pieces with the edge, making a bar that goes from the L to the R face - perpendicular to the slice where it will be inserted. Rotate the U layer 180 degrees to shift the edge piece between the L and R side, depending on where the center pieces are located. The 3 pieces can be joined with only U and r moves, and sometimes l moves if necessary.
3. Once the two center pieces are joined to the edge, rotate U 90 degrees to place the three pieces in the correct slice.

This was not clear in my video - I probably should have spent more time on this step.

As for L3E commutator, the moves will always be exactly the same, or mirrored, if the 3 edges are in the same slice. For example, if the unsolved slice is u and the unsolved edges are in the columns FL, FR, and BR, and the FL edge belongs in the FR column, use [L': [F' U' F, u]]. This, or it's mirror, will solve all cases of L3E in the same slice. I use this in my video. If instead the last edges are in different slices, the commutator can sometimes require an ugly conjugate, but it can be easier to include center pieces.

Thanks again for posting the solve and for linking it!
 
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PapaSmurf

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alg.cubing.net

It's all contained in the link.


I’m sure this has been thought of before, but isn’t there a way to algorithmically combine steps 4b and 4c of roux? It doesn’t seem like there would be a ton of algs. Just want to get input; I couldn’t find this anywhere.
Yeah. It's just called L6EP, and is useful in L7E or when you get an eoskip in LSE. Otherwise, just use EOLR.
 
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The FitnessGram Pacer Test is a multi stage...
alg.cubing.net

It's all contained in the link.



Yeah. It's just called L6EP, and is useful in L7E or when you get an eoskip in LSE. Otherwise, just use EOLR.
Thanks so much!
Do you know where any algs are? I know about EOLR, but I did a quick search on speedsolving wiki and a bit on google, and I couldn’t find anything. I just want to see how many there are and what they’re like.
 

PapaSmurf

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Here they are un sorted.

There are 96 (including EPLL) and they're all probably very good. I don't know how many are trivial, but they'll be an easy set to learn. Average movecount is around 8.6 iirc.
 
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The FitnessGram Pacer Test is a multi stage...
Here they are un sorted.

There are 96 (including EPLL) and they're all probably very good. I don't know how many are trivial, but they'll be an easy set to learn. Average movecount is around 8.6 iirc.
Thanks so much! I’m more of a beginner so maybe I’ll look into simpler ways of doing that. Maybe getting l/r edges together in the bottom layer after EO and then apply an alg to solve the whole thing? I might put that into cube explorer because I’m pretty sure no one has tried that out and it shouldn’t be a lot of algs. I’d like to hear your thoughts on a beginner version of L6EP executed that way. In other words, algorithmically (or possibly intuitively) predicting 4c. Would that have any extra algs than just normal 4c or no? I’m a bit confused about that.

Edit: you can skip the 4c step with l/r edges on the bottom together, I randomly found one case while playing around with alg.cubing.net: https://alg.cubing.net/?setup=M2_U2_M2_U2_U_M2&alg=U_M2_U2_M2_U3_M2_U
Don’t know if this is even useful, but the alg I found doesn’t ever go into the 4c roux step.
 
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Sue Doenim

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Thanks so much! I’m more of a beginner so maybe I’ll look into simpler ways of doing that. Maybe getting l/r edges together in the bottom layer after EO and then apply an alg to solve the whole thing? I might put that into cube explorer because I’m pretty sure no one has tried that out and it shouldn’t be a lot of algs. I’d like to hear your thoughts on a beginner version of L6EP executed that way. In other words, algorithmically (or possibly intuitively) predicting 4c. Would that have any extra algs than just normal 4c or no? I’m a bit confused about that.

Edit: you can skip the 4c step with l/r edges on the bottom together, I randomly found one case while playing around with alg.cubing.net: https://alg.cubing.net/?setup=M2_U2_M2_U2_U_M2&alg=U_M2_U2_M2_U3_M2_U
Don’t know if this is even useful, but the alg I found doesn’t ever go into the 4c roux step.
In my opinion, 4c starts when LR edges (or FB edges if you're doing EOFB) are on the D layer and EO is solved. That way, you can make the solve better by implementing techniques like dots evasion when applicable. As a Roux solver, I know that as you get more experienced with L6E, it gets easier to predict 4c after EOLR is solved, and I bet that more experienced solvers can take that further and predict it earlier. At any rate, I don't think the bad recognition is worth it, and the speed gain would probably be negligible in cases where it applies.
 

Umar Uzden

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Hello, guys. I'm new here and just finished reading this thread. Also I checked "List of methods". Is there any actual or work in progress algorithmic method to blockbuild to F2L - 1 slot state?
 

xyzzy

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I'm new here and just finished reading this thread.
That must have taken you a whole day… (I've done it once before, but that was when the thread was only 100-ish pages long.)

Anyway, no, there isn't any work being done on "algorithmic" blockbuilding. The biggest obstacle is the sheer alg count; it's just not realistic to learn all of the different cases as separate algs. For example, starting with a 2×2×3 block, the number of cases to build an additional square is 3024; restricting this to the cases where there's already a pair built still has 323 cases. For this reason, blockbuilding outside of inspection is usually done by forming pairs and joining them up (relatively few cases), as opposed to directly solving a whole block at once. (If you have 15 seconds of inspection time, that can make it easier to plan out solutions that are better than just creating pairs separately and joining them.)
 

Umar Uzden

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That must have taken you a whole day...

It took me way longer - three weeks or so )

I was thinking about lowering case count through restricting order of solve and corner position.
By order I mean, for example, 2x2x2 block in BDL, then square in FDL (FDL corner + FL and DF edges), then BDR square (BDR + BR and DR)
Any corner except BDL can be moved to FUR position by 1 move, so it will reduce cases by 7 times for front square, so there will be 864 cases, and by 6 times for right square leaving 504 cases.
I genned near 100 algs for front square, and average movecount was ~5.4 face turns. For right square movecount will be higher, but I doubt (don't have access for my pc for week or two) that average will be higher than 9 moves.
Also, for first square corner can be oriented and moved to FUR in 2 moves or less, for second square in 3 or less moves, reducing cases by 3 times, but increasing movecount.
 

WoowyBaby

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2OP (said too-ahp) is an interesting 3x3 speedsolving method that is barely related to any other method, switches off between intuitive parts and algorithmic parts, high chance of lucky solves (see examples), low movecount, about 80% moves being RU, decent lookahead due to 2x2x2 being solved, and fast developed algs.
Cons are pause before EO and high algorithm count, but these can easily be overcome.

A little explanation of the Steps:
2x2x2- Just normal Petrus Block
(EO2x2x2)- This is much better, but harder to plan in inspection than just 2x2x2, so if you can do it, do it, if you can’t then that’s fine. I personally cannot do it.
EO- You have 9 edges and RUF moves, so you basically bring 4 bad edges to F layer using R and U moves, then F to flip those 4.
Koce. F2L-1- Short for Kociemba F2L minus 1 slot, you make F2L-1 so it looks like you’ve done Kociemba Phase 1. It sounds very confusing and complicated, but actually very simple and easy.
TSLE- Just from the ZZ-CT method, you orient remaining 5 corners and place last E edge. Algs: https://gyroninja.net/zzct/zzct-tsle.html
F2L-1- I think everyone knows what this is.
This step can be done entirely [R2,F2,U] if you want to, because Kociemba Phase 1 is already done.
By the way, you can have your slot any of three places, not just FR.
TTLL- Again, from ZZ-CT. Permutes your last 9 pieces, finishing your solve. 1/5 of the time your D corner will be solved, so it PLL time. Algs from same website as TSLE.
Basically how this method is
(kinda random notes):
- 2x2x2 and EO
- Part of Koce. Phase 1 intuitively
- Alg to finish Phase 1
- Part of Koce. Phase 2 intuitively
- Alg to finish Phase 2

EXAMPLE SOLVES:

Scramble: D2 L2 B2 U2 B2 D2 U F2 D' F' R' B2 D2 B2 F' D R2 B2 R2

U2 u R U D’ L2 // 2x2x2
R’ F2 R’ U’ F // EO
R L’ U L // Koce. F2L-1
R’ U R U2 R’ U2 R // TSLE
y’ R2 U2 R2 B2 R2 U R2 U’ R2 // F2L-1
R' U R' U R U' R U' R2 D R' U' R U D' R’ U2 // TTLL
48 moves, 83% of them RU moves

Scramble: U2 B2 U2 F2 R2 U' L2 D R2 F2 D' R F' L D L2 B U2 F2 R B'
x2
r’ U F r F’ U’ // 2x2x2
l2 F2 U F’ // EO
R’ U2 R // Koce. F2L-1
U’ L’ U2 L // TSLE
U’ R2 F2 U’ R2 // F2L-1
y R2 U2 R2 U’ R2 U’ R2 U // TTLL
30 HTM, just random scramble off cstimer, went through scramble only once, crazy, right?? (almost FMC PB!)

Scramble: F2 R2 F2 U' B2 L2 D' F2 U B2 U2 F R2 B' F2 L' F' L' R B'
(x)
R’ U’ R’ r U’ // 2x2x2
(x) U’ F R2 F’ // EO
U R2 U2 R’ // Koce. F2L-1
U’ L’ U’ L U2 L’ U L // TSLE
U2 R2 M’ U2 M U’ y’ M U2 M’ // F2L-1
x' y' D2 U R U' R' D2 R U R' U' // TTLL
40 STM, drilled solution to 7.20 seconds

More Example Solves!
Scramble: B' R2 D' B2 L2 B2 D2 L2 U2 B L2 R2 B' L' R2 U' L2 R2 B' R

R L’ U L y U2 R u’ // 2x2x2
F U’ F // EO
// Koce. F2L-1 Skip
U’ R U' R' U R U2 R' // TSLE
F2 R2 F2 R2 U’ R2 U’ R2 U2 R2 // F2L-1
U2 R U' R D R' U2 R D' R' U2 R' U' R U2 R' // TTLL
44 HTM

Scramble: B2 U' L' F L' D2 B' U2 L2 D2 B2 L2 D2 R B2 D2 L F2 D2 U L
y2 z
u U R’ U z x’ u’ // 2x2x2
R’ U R F’ // EO
L’ U2 L R2 // Koce. F2L-1
R’ U2 R U R’ U2 R // TSLE
U’ R2 U’ R2 // F2L-1
d’ R2 U2 R' U R2 U' R' U' R U2 R2 U2 R U' R2 U2 // TTLL
41 HTM

Scramble: L' U2 L' D2 U2 B2 F2 R U2 F2 L U F' U2 L D2 U' B' D F'

r u' r' U2 R' u2 // 2x2x2
z' U F' // EO
L' R U' R' // Koce. F2L-1
U' L' U' L' D' L U' L' D L U L // TSLE
F2 L2 U2 M' U2 M // F2L-1
R2 U2 R U' R' U R' U2 R2 U R U R' // TTLL
43 STM


Scramble: F2 L2 R2 D2 F' U2 R2 F R2 D2 L2 U' B' R2 B' L' B2 D B' F

U' R2 U' R' U2 // 2x2x2
x2 y' U R' F // EO
U' L' U2 L R' U L' U' R U' L // TSLE
F2 U' F2 U R2 U2 M' U2 M // F2L-1
F2 U' R2 u2 R2 F2 D R2 D r2 // TTLL
38 STM

Random notes:
- Using this for FMC, movecounts of steps are about:
2x2x2: 5 EO: 4
Koce. F2L-1: 4 TSLE: 7
F2L-1: 7 TTLL: 12
Total(FMC)- 39 moves
|In speedsolve: ~42-44 moves|

To be faster with this method,
- Plan your entire 2x2x2
- Track EO in inspection (or even solve it simultaneously w/ 2x2x2?)
- Learn all TSLE and TTLL algs and get recognition down
- Lookahead to F2L-1 during TSLE
————
The name 2OP comes from 2x2x2 -> Orient -> Permute, but also make 2x2x2 then do OverPowered stuff

OPTIMAL TTLL ALGORITHMS (useful for FMC)
The algorithms will be in the same order as this website:
Opposite Front:
1- (U) R2 U’ F2 r2 U F2 U’ r2 F2
2- R2 U2 R' U R2 U' R' U' R U2 R2 U2 R U' R2
3- (U) R U' R' U R U2 R' U' R U R’
4- R’ L’ F2 R L D’ F2 R2 U’ L2 B2 R2 U2 L2
5- F2 R2 U2 F2 U F2 U R2 F2
6- R L U2 R L’ B2 U’ F2 L2 D’ L2 F2 U R2
7- (U2) R2 U R2 U R2 U2 R2
8- (U2) F2 L2 D' B2 D' B2 D2 L2 F2
9- R2 U2 R2 U' R2 U' R2
10- (U2) F2 R2 U' F2 U' F2 U2 R2 F2
11- F2 L2 D2 B2 D B2 D L2 F2
12- R2 D2 B2 D' B2 D' R2 F2 U F2
Opposite Right:
1-
2-
3-
4-
5-
6-
7-
8-
9- F2 U2 F2 U F2 U F2
10-
11-
12-
Diagonal:
1-
2-
3-
4-
5-
6-
7-
8-
9-
10-
11- R2 U B2 U R2 U' R2 U' B2 R2
12-
All Bars:
1-
2-
3-
4-
5-
6-
7-
8- R U R' F2 L D' L D L2 F2
9-
10-
11-
12-
Bar Right:
1- D B2 D' F2 D B2 D' F2
2-
3-
4-
5-
6-
7-
8-
9-
10-
11-
12-
Bar Front:
1- D' r2 U R2 U' r2 D R2
2-
3-
4-
5-
6-
7-
8-
9-
10-
11-
12-
OPTIMAL PLL ALGORITHMS (useful for FMC)
Let’s go:
Aa- (x) R’ U R’ D2 R U’ R’ D2 R2
Ab- (x) R2 D2 R U R’ D2 R U’ R
E- L U' R D2 R' U R L' U' L D2 L' U R'
F- R2 F R F' R' U' F' U F R2 U R' U' R
Ga- F2 D R' U R' U' R D' F2 L' U L
Gb- R2 F2 U R2 D' R2 D B2 U' F2 B2 R2
Gc- B2 R2 L2 U' R2 U R2 D' R2 D L2 B2
Gd- L U L' B2 D' R U' R' U R' D B2
H- R2 F2 B2 L2 D' R2 F2 B2 L2
Ja- R2 D R D' R F2 L' U L F2
Jb- R2 D' R' D R' B2 L U' L' B2
Na- F2 U2 R2 U F2 U2 F2 R2 U R2 U2 R2 F2
Nb- R U' R2 F2 U' R F2 R' U F2 R2 U R'
Ra- R U2 R' U B L' B' R B L B' U R'
Rb- R2 F R U R U' R' F' R U2 R' U2 R
T- R2 U R2 D' F2 L2 U' L2 D F2
Ua- F2 U' R' L F2 R L' U' F2
Ub- F2 U R' L F2 R L' U F2
Y- R2 U' R2 U' R2 U F U F' R2 F U' F'
Z- R2 U' R2 U R2 B2 R2 U B2 U' R2 B2


I’ve been thinking whether this is actually useful for 3x3 2H speedsolves today, I should do some practice and testing speedsolving this, and if it’s not good, then it’s still useful for FMC.
 
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PapaSmurf

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Just do eo2x2x2. Should be possible. Also, you could use a variation on OL5C from SSC to optimise steps 3 and 4. The last 2 steps should be good, although maybe weird ergonomics.
Very good idea though.
 

WoowyBaby

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Yes, I was first thinking of EO2x2x2 but I thought it might be too much to plan in inspection so I split them up, if you guys day it’s possible then ok! (I’ll edit the post)
Edit: Just saying, In the random notes section, under the “To be faster with this method:” I said this about EO- “even solve it simultaneously w/ 2x2x2”
 
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