# [Help Thread]F2L Discussion and Help

#### Llewelys

##### Member
d moves are better and more efficient than cube rotations in a lot of scenarios during F2L
Which ones ?

#### Mischiiii

##### Member
don’t you basically have to do a double regrip for a wide D move ?

#### Atomix

##### Member
d moves are better and more efficient than cube rotations in a lot of scenarios during F2L
By doing any wide moves requires 2 Regrips while there is only 1 regrip for cube rotation.

#### GAN 356 X

##### Member
I really hope J perm adds a cross and F2l trainer to his website. It will help many cubers such as myself to improve

#### Atomix

##### Member
I really hope J perm adds a cross and F2l trainer to his website. It will help many cubers such as myself to improve
Highly doubt that since he himself said that even teaching cross is diffcult. What you can do is while practicing solves , you can comment on the scrambles that have a hard cross. You can then rescramble the cube and see the no. of ways you can come up to solve efficient cross.
For F2L , learn efficient ways to solve cases, not as algorithms, but as methods.

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#### MarkA64

##### Member
By doing any wide moves requires 2 Regrips while there is only 1 regrip for cube rotation.
True but sometimes wide moves can cause more convenient cases when combined with look ahead

#### Llewelys

##### Member
d moves are better and more efficient than cube rotations in a lot of scenarios during F2L
True but sometimes wide moves can cause more convenient cases when combined with look ahead
Can you provide examples?

#### MarkA64

##### Member
Can you provide examples?
Yes: if you would solve a pair in the top layer (especially when they are ready to be inserted) and you know for sure you're going to rotate afterwards, d moves provide both sight and speed.

I would say it definitely takes recognition to use d moves in f2l, but there are certain things d moves do for you that cube rotations don't - since they technically turn a layer while rotating.

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#### MarkA64

##### Member
How would you solve this orange blue pair in the back left slot from this angle (Front face) without rotating?

Edit: found a solutuon
U2 l U' L' U L U l'

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#### Aerma

How would you solve this orange blue pair in the back left slot from this angle (Front face) without rotating?

Edit: found a solutuon
U2 l U' L' U L U l'
Not bad, but a rotation here isn't the worst thing in the world imo.

#### MarkA64

##### Member
Not bad, but a rotation here isn't the worst thing in the world imo.
Trying to learn all angles for various cases in F2L, I think it helps expand your knowledge and recognition.

#### MarkA64

##### Member
Hey guys, felt like sharing an algorithm I learned today. It's not really listed anywhere, it's just a combination of moves, but the latter part is something everyone should know.

You basically bring the edge from the back left out (without unsolving anything) and then do r U' R' U R U r'.

Rotationless and fast.

Here's another algorithim to solve this case from the back without rotating.

L F R U' R' F' L'

##### Member
Hey guys, felt like sharing an algorithm I learned today. It's not really listed anywhere, it's just a combination of moves, but the latter part is something everyone should know.

You basically bring the edge from the back left out (without unsolving anything) and then do r U' R' U R U r'.

Rotationless and fast.
Cool!
I’m trying to learn f2l from all angles for super efficiency and execution. So many more cases than you might imagine!

For the case above I want my alg to be B’RUR’B

But I still need to practice recognition and execution.

I tend to do a U first then recognise then do a U’, need to stare at the case for an hour or two haha

#### Llewelys

##### Member
For the case above I want my alg to be B’RUR’B
It's best to rotate and insert than to regrip and use awkward B moves.
It's not that good of an idea to aim for rotationless solves with CFOP, if you really don't want to rotate use ZZ or Roux!

"Solving F2L cases from all angles" means:
- not rotating when you don't have to (oriented edge), even if it means using your left hand
- with above point: never rotating twice (y2, y then later in the alg y or y')
- when you do have to rotate, rotating so that you solve a back slot rather than a front slot

Edit: wait I realized you're talking about solving FR slot here, not BL.
Forget what I said, I don't have a good alg for this either (I use f' L' f to pair the edge and corner, then insert with R U2 R')

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#### TreyH

##### Member
I’ve been working on my 3x3x3 F2L, and the “cross solved” preset in ChaoTimer is helpful to me for that—sure, solving the cross is easy, but I’m focusing on F2L, so it saves a step.

The weird thing is—while most sequences that it gives me work on either a fully-solved cube or an F2L-solved cube with the top layer still unsolved, sometimes I hit a sequence that only works (i.e., gives me a scramble with cross already solved) on a fully-solved cube, but, if only F2L is solved, does not give me cross solved.

I’ve been trying to work out how this is even possible, and I can’t figure it out. In my mind, none of the top level pieces should matter, since they aren’t involved in cros solved, and all the cross solved pieces are in the F2L solution.

So can someone tell me how I can start with a solved cube, do a set of moves and end up with a cross-solved scramble, but start with an arbitrary F2L-solved cube, do those same moves, and not end up with cross solved?

#### Owen Morrison

##### Member
That doesn't make sense to me either, but I would recommend that you don't skip doing cross, you can skip OLL and PLL for F2L practice, but one of the hardest parts of F2L is the Cross to F2L transition. If you aren't solving the cross before F2L you are not getting the practice you need to have a good cross to F2L transition.

#### TreyH

##### Member
That doesn't make sense to me either, but I would recommend that you don't skip doing cross, you can skip OLL and PLL for F2L practice, but one of the hardest parts of F2L is the Cross to F2L transition. If you aren't solving the cross before F2L you are not getting the practice you need to have a good cross to F2L transition.
Apologies—I was posting to the “Puzzle Theory” forum because it’s a question I’ll wrestle with even if I stop using cross-solved scrambles. I’d just like to understand how this is possible, whether or not it’s useful. Sorry I wasn’t more clear about that.

#### Mike Hughey

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
It should not be possible. Odds are that you are simply misapplying the scramble when doing it with the F2L-only solved cube.

If you have an example where this actually happens, please post it here - if your example genuinely and repeatably gives a solved cross with a solved cube, but an unsolved cross with just F2L solved, it would definitively prove me wrong.

#### TreyH

##### Member
It should not be possible. Odds are that you are simply misapplying the scramble when doing it with the F2L-only solved cube.

If you have an example where this actually happens, please post it here - if your example genuinely and repeatably gives a solved cross with a solved cube, but an unsolved cross with just F2L solved, it would definitively prove me wrong.
Hmm... I use a couple smart cubes that catch me if I make a scrambling error—and I almost never do. When I first started noticing this, I stopped, solved a cube completely and re-tried the scramble—cross solved—then solved F2L and retried the scramble—no cross solved. Then solved the cube and did it again, with the exact same scramble after F2L not giving me a cross again. And then a third time. So I’d convinced myself that human (my) error couldn’t be the issue.

But now I’m wondering if perhaps my error is this: the smart cubes all want you to start a scramble white-side-up. ChaoTimer, OTOH, wants you to start yellow-side-up—which I do, otherwise the cross wouldn’t appear on the white face as I’m used to. But perhaps I’ve been consistently forgetting to reorient “upside-down” when trying to rescramble an F2L solve? (Or rather, consistently reorienting for a solved cube, but every now and again forgetting with an F2L solve—then consistently doing it wrong when I’ve been trying to focus on this issue?)

It had been happening only about 1 out of 10 scrambles, so let me try a bunch with this new hypothesis in hand (so, making sure yellow’s up even when F2L is solved) and see if that was the issue all along.... I hope so, it was truly unsettling to think somehow the top layer could matter in generating a solved cross.

#### Owen Morrison

##### Member
Hmm... I use a couple smart cubes that catch me if I make a scrambling error—and I almost never do. When I first started noticing this, I stopped, solved a cube completely and re-tried the scramble—cross solved—then solved F2L and retried the scramble—no cross solved. Then solved the cube and did it again, with the exact same scramble after F2L not giving me a cross again. And then a third time. So I’d convinced myself that human (my) error couldn’t be the issue.

But now I’m wondering if perhaps my error is this: the smart cubes all want you to start a scramble white-side-up. ChaoTimer, OTOH, wants you to start yellow-side-up—which I do, otherwise the cross wouldn’t appear on the white face as I’m used to. But perhaps I’ve been consistently forgetting to reorient “upside-down” when trying to rescramble an F2L solve? (Or rather, consistently reorienting for a solved cube, but every now and again forgetting with an F2L solve—then consistently doing it wrong when I’ve been trying to focus on this issue?)

It had been happening only about 1 out of 10 scrambles, so let me try a bunch with this new hypothesis in hand (so, making sure yellow’s up even when F2L is solved) and see if that was the issue all along.... I hope so, it was truly unsettling to think somehow the top layer could matter in generating a solved cross.
Could you send a scramble where this happens?