# The New Method / Substep / Concept Idea Thread

#### Tao Yu

##### Member
I've thought about a way to do LL + LS quite quickly. My idea is to orient and permute the corners while inserting LS, then there's 4 OLLs you can get from there(one of them being OLL solved completely). Then use ELL to orient and permute the LL edges. That would be LS, OLL and PLL solved in 2 algorithms.

I just can't find a method that orients and permutes the corners while inserting LS. If anyboody know of such methods please tell me.

It would also be great if somebody could teach me how you find all the possible cases. E.g. how would you go about finding all the possible cases for PLL.
This is if there isn't any method out there that meets my requirements, I will maybe be able to make it myself.
You could first make a pair and then use WVCP to orient and permute the corners.

You should check out COALL. It's somewhat similar to your idea.

#### Arc

##### Member
zz too many regrips for f2l
ZZ f2l regrips aren’t a massive issue for me. I regrip barely more than a cfoper, and I don’t rotate.
My 2 cents here.
Try doing linear blocks. Plan all the way through EOLine + DL in inspection and then track one of the two LB pairs and then build it (which is like 7/8 times pure RU, 1/8 maybe one L), insert it and open slot (make sure you don't hide pieces to the other pair though). Finish up your second pair (always pure RU) and insert it with a single L. Continue as if you had just done the rotation after Petrus EO.

If there's something really super duper easy for RB, I'll just build RB first (which is a lot more L than building LB first unfortunately but it's still not switchy which is where the regrips are from) and then do a z. I'm y2 z neutral (in general, for ZZ I only solve red top/white front) so it's not weird for me at all. Might be weird if you're not z neutral at all.

A common misconception is that it's less efficient to do this. Well there is some truth to that. What is not true is that it is inherently less efficient to do one block at a time. However you are much more restricted on which pairs you build, meaning you have fewer options and are less likely to have an easier case available. That is where efficiency drops a little. But in reality, are you really looking at all 8 possible pairs after EOLine to find the most efficient? Nah you just go with the first you see, otherwise you end up with huge pauses.

#### Noa

##### Member
You could first make a pair and then use WVCP to orient and permute the corners.

You should check out COALL. It's somewhat similar to your idea.
Yes! this is just what I'm looking for, but when I open the WVCP page there isn't any pictures of the cases.

#### Noa

##### Member
When making a new method, how do you find all the possible cases?

Like if i wanted to find all the PLL cases, how would i do that?

#### Tao Yu

##### Member
Yes! this is just what I'm looking for, but when I open the WVCP page there isn't any pictures of the cases.
I don't know how to fix that unfortunately, so you are probably going to have to either do them backwards to figure out what cases they solve, or try to make your own Google sheet of them.

I might try getting them into my alg trainer at some point.

When making a new method, how do you find all the possible cases?

Like if i wanted to find all the PLL cases, how would i do that?
I think you can do this with HARCS, but I don't know how to do it myself. I think @Arc or @mDiPalma might be able to help you though.

#### Quinson

##### Member
I'm thinking of new ways to use TTLLs with CFOP:

Option 1:
1. Ribbon (Cross + one 2nd layer edge)
2. F2L-1 + EO
3. TSLE (only 25 algs since EO is done)
4. TTLL (72 algs+ 21 PLL algs)
I think it is not superior to ZZ-CT, but it could be a stepping stone to it when switching to ZZ-CT or the following option from CFOP.

Option 2:
1. Cross
2. F2L-1
3. Solve orientation and last F2L edge (unknown number of algs)
4. TTLL (72 algs+ 21 PLL algs)
This creates some sort of "CFOP-CT" method. I hope somebody could look into how many algs step 3 has. If it has <500 algs, maybe it could become a better method than CFOP or even ZB. A stepping stone would be to insert the edge and do TOLS, with 173 algs.

Option 3:
1. Cross
2. 1st layer - 1 corner
3. 2nd layer with keyhole
4. Beginner TOLS (solve edge orientation with 1 alg, then corner orientation with
sune and 2 TSLE cases)
5. 2-look TTLL (solve corners, solve edges with U perm, 8 algs)
Again, more of a stepping stone than a full method. The alg count is very low, so it might be possible to use this as a beginner method. It would be even better if someone can find a way to do corners for TTLL with 1 or 2 algs.

I'll do example solves if I have time.

#### JTay

##### Member
Howdy @Quinson, I'm the creator of Ribbon. I still believe TOLS + TTLL is the best approach for LSLL. For a three look approach, I think the best thing to do is ELS, TOLS with edges oriented, and TTLL. Also, unfortunately, inserting edge + full orientation is approximately 1300 algs, which doesn't seem practical when you consider how little effort it takes to insert the edge early in the solve.

#### Quinson

##### Member
Howdy @Quinson, I'm the creator of Ribbon. I still believe TOLS + TTLL is the best approach for LSLL. For a three look approach, I think the best thing to do is ELS, TOLS with edges oriented, and TTLL. Also, unfortunately, inserting edge + full orientation is approximately 1300 algs, which doesn't seem practical when you consider how little effort it takes to insert the edge early in the solve.
Oh... Well option 2 is off the table now
By the way, are all of the TOLS algs optimised? I was wondering if there is a way to solve it more intuitively like ColorfulPockets did with TSLE

#### JTay

##### Member
Yes, I've put a lot of work into optimizing them, they should be on the Ribbon page and be pretty well updated. There isn't really an intuitive way of doing it, it's much better to just treat them like learning more OLL algs.

#### 1001010101001

##### Member
1. EO
2. Corner Orientation( without affecting edges) 2 look(top bottom)
3. Orient everything else( opposite colours) 1 look
4.Permute everything 4 look
You can basically spam TPS

##### Member
new ll method OLLPP

1) solve oll while phasing both edges and corners using 1/509 algs (phasing corners is forcing a solved or diagonal corner permutation).

2) then solve the rest using 1/5 algs. this includes a 1/8 skip chance and a 1/8 H-perm.

#### Arc

##### Member
1. EO
2. Corner Orientation( without affecting edges) 2 look(top bottom)
3. Orient everything else( opposite colours) 1 look
4.Permute everything 4 look
You can basically spam TPS
This sounds like a bad version of SSC.

#### Thom S.

##### Member
new ll method OLLPP

1) solve oll while phasing both edges and corners using 1/509 algs (phasing corners is forcing a solved or diagonal corner permutation).

2) then solve the rest using 1/5 algs. this includes a 1/8 skip chance and a 1/8 H-perm.
It doesn't seem horrible, but tell me/try to sell it to me
why should I choose these 514 Algorithms instead of ZBLL's 493 Algorithms or OLLCP's 334 for that matter? What new feature does it give me?

##### Member
It doesn't seem horrible, but tell me/try to sell it to me
why should I choose these 514 Algorithms instead of ZBLL's 493 Algorithms or OLLCP's 334 for that matter? What new feature does it give me?
i believe that a good alg set is one that covers as many good algs as possible, while minimizing the amount of bad algorithms. the fact that the algs for this method is determined by all aspects of last layer makes it so that less of the faster algorithms are missed. to prevent longer algorithms, the phasing makes more than one algorithm actually work for each case, so a solved cp, and a diagonal cp, will be the same. the phasing is also used to minimize the amount of time to recognize the case (im still not sure about cp phasing recognition), as well as makes sure the alg count doesn't get to high.
after doing this you will have a 1/8 chance skip and a 1/8 chance H-perm. the rest of the pll cases here are not to good.

#### PapaSmurf

##### Member
I think that ollcp gives the same benefit for less algs, and as you like the skip stuff, every 1 in 12 solves are a pll skip. It depends on the recognition, but I don't see why it should be any better. Nice idea though.

##### Member
I think that ollcp gives the same benefit for less algs, and as you like the skip stuff, every 1 in 12 solves are a pll skip. It depends on the recognition, but I don't see why it should be any better. Nice idea though.
the 1/12 is not a pll skip, it is called an epll skip, but i wanted to check other ways to solve ll before really learning algs.

in ollcp there are many bad algorithms due to long swaps, but making corners only half solved in ollpp removes most of the long algorithms. i do not know if new long algorithms are with ollpp, but i did make this for the recognition.

#### PapaSmurf

##### Member
the 1/12 is not a pll skip, it is called an epll skip
Meh. You know what I meant. And I think that you should gen some algs just to see. Also, what about solving two adjacent corners? You can’t get diag swaps then, and the chances of better plls is increased. So Aa and Ab, F, H, T, Z. The only bad one in that set is F. Compare to diag phasing, E, H, Na and Nb, Z. There is a much higher chance of a bad pll. Correct me if I’m wrong though.

##### Member
Meh. You know what I meant. And I think that you should gen some algs just to see. Also, what about solving two adjacent corners? You can’t get diag swaps then, and the chances of better plls is increased. So Aa and Ab, F, H, T, Z. The only bad one in that set is F. Compare to diag phasing, E, H, Na and Nb, Z. There is a much higher chance of a bad pll. Correct me if I’m wrong though.
solving adgacent corners will get the algorithm count to above 1000, if you dont look at the other corners.
the skip chance after this will still be 1/8 and will have better algs for the second set.
some (random) algs i just found (http://birdflu.lar5.com/?pos=____&list=algs) (picked the best of the algs that solve lt)
F' L' U y' L' U L U' L' U2 L F R
R U R' U R U2 R'
F' L' U L U' L' y' L' U' L F R
R U2 R' F R' F' R2 U2 R'

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#### Nicky Steingraber

##### Member
BWPOP (Block Wing Pair OLL PLL)
First you will build a 2x2x2 block (Block)
then u build the 2 F2L pairs connecting to the block witch creates a "wing" face on the white face (assuming u started on white) (wing)
then u solve the middle layer which now it only has one edge left so u do that
then insert the missing cross edges
then do the last F2L pair
then OLL and PLL is the same
Here is a recontruction if u don't understand:
: L2 B2 U' F2 D R2 U R2 U2 L2 D2 L' U R' F' U' R B2 R' D' B

y' // inspection
D R' U L U' L U2 F' U F // 2x2x2 Block
B2 U y' R U R' y' U2 L' U' L U' F U2 F' // F2L 1 and F2L 2
y M' U' M y' U2 R U' R' U2 y M' U2 M// usally suppose to insert 2 cross edges got lucky there
y' U R U' R' U2 R U' R' //

this is just First 2 layers because OLL and PLL don't change

#### architmahale

##### Member
uh. Yeah.

(example reconstruction below, but first, story time.)

I randomly created this "method" when I was high on multiple medicine when I had the flu. I just thought of it and tried it out. It's sort of odd, but I managed to get an average of 19 with it. Which is alright. Anyway, here is the breakdown.

Step 1: Create 2/4 of a cross, but in one line going from the left center to the right center.
Step 2: Place 2 edges of the above color in to the cross piece positions of the F and B face, that way when doing "F2L" none of the edges needed to make a pair are in the D face.
Step 3: Pair up all edges and corners and insert regularly. You should have ALL of F2L done by this step except for 2 cross pieces which are currently somewhere in the U face.
Step 4: Orient the corners using recognizable OLL algs.
Step 5: If there are headlights in the oriented corners, put it to the left and do a T-Perm. If there are not any headlights, do a Y-Perm.
Step 6: Insert last 2 edges using M, M', U, and U' moves only.
Step 7: You will end up with 1 of 4 PLLs. Either a Ua, Ub, H, or Z. NOTHING else can possible come. 25% chance for Ua, 25% chance Ub, and so on for H-Perm and Z-Perm.
Step 8: Celebrate and Contemplate wtf you just did lol.

This method honestly is weird. I DO NOT KNOW IF IT ALREADY EXISTS. I WAS JUST MESSING AROUND A FEW WEEKS AGO AND THIS IS WHAT I CREATED. This is why I dubbed it RouxFOP: It's like Roux, sort of. There is NO LSE, more like L2E. I don't know why if you can put in 2 cross pieces in the beginning, you can't put the other 2. But nonetheless, here is reconstruction with the steps and instructions AT THE END OF THE SOLVE. This is my solve with this "method."

----------

Scramble:
F R2 U2 R U2 L F2 L' U2 R2 F2 U2 D F2 R2 F' D B R' U

Inspection:
x (blue bottom, orange left. Don't ask why I do blue cross, I just do it.)

Solve:
B D' (2 cross pieces) (2)
R U' R' B2 (2 green pieces in the F-face and the B-face) (4)
y U L U' L' (1st pair) (4)
R' U2 R U R U R' U y' L U' L' (2nd pair) (11)
U' R U R' (3rd pair) (4)
y U2 R U R' U2 R U' R' (4th pair) (8)
y' R U2 R' U' R U' R' (Corner Orientation) (7)
M U2 M' U M' U2 M (Last 2 cross pieces) (7)
U2 [M' U M U2 M' U M] U (OLL) (9)
[M2 U M U2 M' U' M2] U (PLL) (8)

________________________________
time: 18.425
turn count: 64
TPS: 3.47

Here we go, this is for you efficiency guys, people thinking "what did I just do," and Syd Barrett, Shine on You crazy Diamond.

First was B D' which put in the Orange-Blue edge and the Red-Blue edge. This creates the beginning of the REDGE (right pairs) and LEDGES (left pairs).

Second was to put 2 green edges in the F-face and B-face. When pairing, it is possible for an edge to be in the FD 3 pieces or the BD 3 pieces. Putting in the two green pieces serve as "fillers" and prevent the edges needed to finish pairing stay out of those positions. It is helpful so you don't have to fish them out using F and B moves when needed to complete a pair.

Then I start pairing and inserting all the pairs.

After all the pairs have been paired and inserted, next is flipping all the corners up. This is achieved by performing the corresponding OLL cases. THIS IS NOT OLL, JUST MAKING THE CORNERS FLIP UP. Sometimes they are sunes, antisunes, and a few other OLLs. In this case, antisune was done.

Now, all the corners are oriented. Next is to INSERT THE LAST 2 CROSS PIECES. DO THIS ONLY WITH M and U moves. After this is done, you will always get one of three OLL cases. Either the checkered one, the two flipped edges making an "H" shape. You can also get one with the two edges flipped next to each other, the one which actually happened. I did this OLL by using M and U moves, not the one with the sexy and then the M'.

Then was simple, U and then U-perm.

It is like Roux, but also isn't. The inserting of the last two cross pieces is where things skew out. When I should my friends, they said "Can't you just finish the cross in the beginning if you're already doing two of them?" the answer is yes, yes I can. But did I want to? No. I was high on advils (pain relievers).

Once again I'm going to say this again. I KNOW THIS METHOD IS WEIRD. I thought of it when I was really sick one day wishing I could use my cube. I didn't want to get all my germs on it. I somehow conceived of this method. My fastest time to date is 15.913. I average sub-19 with it.