[Help Thread] CFOP Discussion

[PetrusQuber]

Hmm, I would say to learn them, and practise during COLL sessions, but not real solves. I learnt S, then gave up on AS. Again, recognition is useful.

 

[ProStar]

sorry for lots of questions, but should I learn the COLLs for the sune and antisune cases? or will they be slower than OCLL and PLL because sune and antisune are such fast algs?

Don't learn the S/AS COLLs unless you're planning on full ZBLL, they aren't as fast as OCLL->PLL(for the reasons you suspected)

- The guy twice your speed

 

[Owen Morrison]

Don't learn the S/AS COLLs unless you're planning on full ZBLL, they aren't as fast as OCLL->PLL(for the reasons you suspected)

- The guy twice your speed

alright thanks I'll get to work on learning COLL.

 

[PetrusQuber]

Don't learn the S/AS COLLs unless you're planning on full ZBLL, they aren't as fast as OCLL->PLL(for the reasons you suspected)

- The guy twice your speed

But they’re still good for learning and using recognition properly imo.

 

[ProStar]

But they’re still good for learning and using recognition properly imo.

If you're not gonna learn any S/AS ZBLLs(would you definitely shouldn't if your learning ~100), then knowing the algs is pointless. At most you could learn recog for them, but no need for the algs

 

[Deleted member 51471]

sorry for lots of questions, but should I learn the COLLs for the sune and antisune cases? or will they be slower than OCLL and PLL because sune and antisune are such fast algs?

I think there are like two As and S that are worth it, the standard alg and another short one that's rul.

 

[ProStar]

I'm kinda stuck around 19ish seconds. I'm working on PLL(need to learn Gs, V, Nb), then will learn OLL. I'm white-cross only. I did an Ao5 for each step, here are my splits:

Cross
avg of 5: 1.48

Time List:
1. 1.85 B U' R U' B2 L2 U D2 R' U2 F2 U2 B' L2 F D2 L2 F2 L2 F2
2. (0.55) B2 R2 D' R2 U' B2 R2 U R2 U2 F2 U' B U2 R' F U' F' R F D'
3. 1.46 L' D' R2 F2 U2 B2 R2 D' B2 R2 U' L2 B' U L F' L R' D2 U' R'
4. 1.12 B' R' B2 R2 U2 B2 L B2 D2 B2 L2 U' L2 R F L D2 R U2
5. (2.14) B2 D2 F2 B D B' R L2 F' U2 D2 F R2 F2 D2 F' L2 B2 D R'

I feel like those scrambles were pretty lucky, they may be misrepresenting my skill at cross

F2L
Did these with about 1.5 seconds of inspection because I do a little lookahead while solving cross

avg of 5: 10.13

Time List:
1. (11.09) B U' L' U2 L' D2 L2 U2 F2 L R2 U2 F2 D F D F2 D2 F2 L'
2. 9.77 U2 R L2 B' D2 F' U2 F2 R2 B U F2 L B' L2 U' F' D2
3. (8.59) F U2 B2 L2 F2 U2 B' L F2 B2 R2 U' F2 U D2 R2 B2 U B2
4. 10.10 R2 F' U2 L2 B' D2 F' U2 B2 R2 F' D2 R' U2 R2 U' R U B2 U
5. 10.52 U R' D2 L2 U L2 U' B2 R2 U' F2 U2 F2 R' D' B2 R F U F2

For the last one I did a sledge to insert the last pair, just like I would do normally

OLL
I always recognize the 1st OLL look during F2L, so I inspected that real quick and that's it
avg of 5: 2.71

Time List:
1. 3.05 U2 R2 B2 L2 R' D2 R' F2 R' F2 R2 F' D' F D' L2 B2 R'
2. (2.31) U' F2 U2 R2 B2 L2 F2 D L2 B2 U' F' R F' R2 U R U' R
3. (3.37) F' D F2 R2 U F2 D2 B2 L2 U B2 U2 L D L' U F2 U2 F'
4. 2.41 F2 L2 D' B2 L2 F2 R2 U R2 U' B' U' B R' U B U' R'
5. 2.67 B2 L2 U' B2 U F2 U' B2 U F2 D L D' B' L U B'

All of them I did 2-look, which is expected

PLL
I didn't inspect, so recognition is included here
avg of 5: 3.11

Time List:
1. (4.68[2-Look]) L2 U2 B2 U R2 U2 B2 U R2 U2 B2 U L' R B2 L' R
2. 2.10[Rb] L2 D L2 B2 U L2 U' R2 U B2 F2 L R' U2 L R'
3. 4.07[2-look] U L2 D' R2 F2 D' F2 U F2 U' L R' D2 L R'
4. (1.55[Ja]) F2 L2 U' L2 D F2 D' F2 U F2
5. 3.15[2-look] F2 D' R2 D B2 U' B2 U F2 L' R' U2 L R

60% were 2-look, 1 V-Perm and 2 Gs. Not including recognition, I got all the PLLs I know sub-2(except Na, I'm low 3. And I'm not good enough at E to do in a solve)


I entered the splits into Feliks' splits feedback tool. I think the cross is way faster than I actually am, but here's what I got:

 

[Owen Morrison]

I'm kinda stuck around 19ish seconds. I'm working on PLL(need to learn Gs, V, Nb), then will learn OLL. I'm white-cross only. I did an Ao5 for each step, here are my splits:

Cross
avg of 5: 1.48

Time List:
1. 1.85 B U' R U' B2 L2 U D2 R' U2 F2 U2 B' L2 F D2 L2 F2 L2 F2
2. (0.55) B2 R2 D' R2 U' B2 R2 U R2 U2 F2 U' B U2 R' F U' F' R F D'
3. 1.46 L' D' R2 F2 U2 B2 R2 D' B2 R2 U' L2 B' U L F' L R' D2 U' R'
4. 1.12 B' R' B2 R2 U2 B2 L B2 D2 B2 L2 U' L2 R F L D2 R U2
5. (2.14) B2 D2 F2 B D B' R L2 F' U2 D2 F R2 F2 D2 F' L2 B2 D R'

I feel like those scrambles were pretty lucky, they may be misrepresenting my skill at cross

F2L
Did these with about 1.5 seconds of inspection because I do a little lookahead while solving cross

avg of 5: 10.13

Time List:
1. (11.09) B U' L' U2 L' D2 L2 U2 F2 L R2 U2 F2 D F D F2 D2 F2 L'
2. 9.77 U2 R L2 B' D2 F' U2 F2 R2 B U F2 L B' L2 U' F' D2
3. (8.59) F U2 B2 L2 F2 U2 B' L F2 B2 R2 U' F2 U D2 R2 B2 U B2
4. 10.10 R2 F' U2 L2 B' D2 F' U2 B2 R2 F' D2 R' U2 R2 U' R U B2 U
5. 10.52 U R' D2 L2 U L2 U' B2 R2 U' F2 U2 F2 R' D' B2 R F U F2

For the last one I did a sledge to insert the last pair, just like I would do normally

OLL
I always recognize the 1st OLL look during F2L, so I inspected that real quick and that's it
avg of 5: 2.71

Time List:
1. 3.05 U2 R2 B2 L2 R' D2 R' F2 R' F2 R2 F' D' F D' L2 B2 R'
2. (2.31) U' F2 U2 R2 B2 L2 F2 D L2 B2 U' F' R F' R2 U R U' R
3. (3.37) F' D F2 R2 U F2 D2 B2 L2 U B2 U2 L D L' U F2 U2 F'
4. 2.41 F2 L2 D' B2 L2 F2 R2 U R2 U' B' U' B R' U B U' R'
5. 2.67 B2 L2 U' B2 U F2 U' B2 U F2 D L D' B' L U B'

All of them I did 2-look, which is expected

PLL
I didn't inspect, so recognition is included here
avg of 5: 3.11

Time List:
1. (4.68[2-Look]) L2 U2 B2 U R2 U2 B2 U R2 U2 B2 U L' R B2 L' R
2. 2.10[Rb] L2 D L2 B2 U L2 U' R2 U B2 F2 L R' U2 L R'
3. 4.07[2-look] U L2 D' R2 F2 D' F2 U F2 U' L R' D2 L R'
4. (1.55[Ja]) F2 L2 U' L2 D F2 D' F2 U F2
5. 3.15[2-look] F2 D' R2 D B2 U' B2 U F2 L' R' U2 L R

60% were 2-look, 1 V-Perm and 2 Gs. Not including recognition, I got all the PLLs I know sub-2(except Na, I'm low 3. And I'm not good enough at E to do in a solve)


I entered the splits into Feliks' splits feedback tool. I think the cross is way faster than I actually am, but here's what I got:View attachment 11551

well I have to recommend becoming color neutral RIGHT NOW! 6 times more lucky scrambles, 6 times less unlucky scrambles. More planned first pairs, less bad cross solutions, more consistent times.

 

[paul.edmondson.magician]

I'm kinda stuck around 19ish seconds. I'm working on PLL(need to learn Gs, V, Nb), then will learn OLL. I'm white-cross only. I did an Ao5 for each step, here are my splits:

Cross
avg of 5: 1.48

Time List:
1. 1.85 B U' R U' B2 L2 U D2 R' U2 F2 U2 B' L2 F D2 L2 F2 L2 F2
2. (0.55) B2 R2 D' R2 U' B2 R2 U R2 U2 F2 U' B U2 R' F U' F' R F D'
3. 1.46 L' D' R2 F2 U2 B2 R2 D' B2 R2 U' L2 B' U L F' L R' D2 U' R'
4. 1.12 B' R' B2 R2 U2 B2 L B2 D2 B2 L2 U' L2 R F L D2 R U2
5. (2.14) B2 D2 F2 B D B' R L2 F' U2 D2 F R2 F2 D2 F' L2 B2 D R'

I feel like those scrambles were pretty lucky, they may be misrepresenting my skill at cross

F2L
Did these with about 1.5 seconds of inspection because I do a little lookahead while solving cross

avg of 5: 10.13

Time List:
1. (11.09) B U' L' U2 L' D2 L2 U2 F2 L R2 U2 F2 D F D F2 D2 F2 L'
2. 9.77 U2 R L2 B' D2 F' U2 F2 R2 B U F2 L B' L2 U' F' D2
3. (8.59) F U2 B2 L2 F2 U2 B' L F2 B2 R2 U' F2 U D2 R2 B2 U B2
4. 10.10 R2 F' U2 L2 B' D2 F' U2 B2 R2 F' D2 R' U2 R2 U' R U B2 U
5. 10.52 U R' D2 L2 U L2 U' B2 R2 U' F2 U2 F2 R' D' B2 R F U F2

For the last one I did a sledge to insert the last pair, just like I would do normally

OLL
I always recognize the 1st OLL look during F2L, so I inspected that real quick and that's it
avg of 5: 2.71

Time List:
1. 3.05 U2 R2 B2 L2 R' D2 R' F2 R' F2 R2 F' D' F D' L2 B2 R'
2. (2.31) U' F2 U2 R2 B2 L2 F2 D L2 B2 U' F' R F' R2 U R U' R
3. (3.37) F' D F2 R2 U F2 D2 B2 L2 U B2 U2 L D L' U F2 U2 F'
4. 2.41 F2 L2 D' B2 L2 F2 R2 U R2 U' B' U' B R' U B U' R'
5. 2.67 B2 L2 U' B2 U F2 U' B2 U F2 D L D' B' L U B'

All of them I did 2-look, which is expected

PLL
I didn't inspect, so recognition is included here
avg of 5: 3.11

Time List:
1. (4.68[2-Look]) L2 U2 B2 U R2 U2 B2 U R2 U2 B2 U L' R B2 L' R
2. 2.10[Rb] L2 D L2 B2 U L2 U' R2 U B2 F2 L R' U2 L R'
3. 4.07[2-look] U L2 D' R2 F2 D' F2 U F2 U' L R' D2 L R'
4. (1.55[Ja]) F2 L2 U' L2 D F2 D' F2 U F2
5. 3.15[2-look] F2 D' R2 D B2 U' B2 U F2 L' R' U2 L R

60% were 2-look, 1 V-Perm and 2 Gs. Not including recognition, I got all the PLLs I know sub-2(except Na, I'm low 3. And I'm not good enough at E to do in a solve)


I entered the splits into Feliks' splits feedback tool. I think the cross is way faster than I actually am, but here's what I got:View attachment 11551

Wow. I need to get this data. Where can I find the tool please?


Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[ProStar]

well I have to recommend becoming color neutral RIGHT NOW! 6 times more lucky scrambles, 6 times less unlucky scrambles. More planned first pairs, less bad cross solutions, more consistent times.

Yeah, I'll probably start becoming CN. It's kinda depressing though because I just started improving after using PLL

Wow. I need to get this data. Where can I find the tool please?


Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

If you mean Feliks' splits tool, it's here. If you mean everything else, I wrote it myself and for the splits I just timed individual splits

 

[Owen Morrison]

Does anyone know how much faster learning full ZBLL will make a sub 10 CFOP solver?

 

[Deleted member 51471]

Does anyone know how much faster learning full ZBLL will make a sub 10 CFOP solver?

It would help, but only on solves with EO done. So if you train ZBLL properly like maybe .2 improvement ?
Dunno, but if you're willing to also learn ZBLS or switch to an EO done method like ZZ, LEOR, ZBroux or stuff like that it's definitely worth it.

 

[ProStar]

It would help, but only on solves with EO done. So if you train ZBLL properly like maybe .2 improvement ?
Dunno, but if you're willing to also learn ZBLS or switch to an EO done method like ZZ, LEOR, ZBroux or stuff like that it's definitely worth it.

Don't forget that recognizing ZBLL takes time, same with ZBLS if you were to go that far. Just watch @Tao Yu's ZB solves

 

[Owen Morrison]

so would learning some ZBLLs actually help my times at all?

 

[Deleted member 51471]

so would learning some ZBLLs actually help my times at all?

Not all of them, only those with EO done.
You could learn all of it if you wanted, but even feliks only knows T and some L.

 

[PetrusQuber]

If you learn some ZBLL I highly recommend learning at least some easy ZBLS since that will increase the chance to actually get a ZBLL. Without ZBLS, it’s kind of a roll of a dice whether you get a ZBLL you know or not, and actually

so would learning some ZBLLs actually help my times at all?

Well if you look at say an ao100 with some ZBLL knowledge in it, then compare it to an ao100 with none, the latter will be slower. Learning 1 ZBLL, over time, will affect your speed oh so slightly, for those times you get that ZBLL and do your last layer slightly faster.

Long answer short: When you have EO, OCLL+PLL is worse than ZBLL done properly (fast recog and good alg)

 

[ProStar]

If you learn some ZBLL I highly recommend learning at least some easy ZBLS since that will increase the chance to actually get a ZBLL. Without ZBLS, it’s kind of a roll of a dice whether you get a ZBLL you know or not, and actually

Do the VHLSes(?) where the cube is paired up, they're relatively fast and since you're already slower due to CN it won't feel that demotivating if you get slightly slower because of them. These are the one's I'd use:

R' F R F'
F' U F R U' R'
F' U2 F R U' R'

And then of course when EO is done(3/4 of a cross created) then just do R U' R'

 

[Owen Morrison]

Do the VHLSes(?) where the cube is paired up, they're relatively fast and since you're already slower due to CN it won't feel that demotivating if you get slightly slower because of them. These are the one's I'd use:

R' F R F'
F' U F R U' R'
F' U2 F R U' R'

And then of course when EO is done(3/4 of a cross created) then just do R U' R'

I think I intuitively learned how to force an EO skip when I averaged about 30 seconds, I think I will only use the fast cases.

 

[ProStar]

I think I intuitively learned how to force an EO skip when I averaged about 30 seconds, I think I will only use the fast cases.

I did the same thing, I learned all of those intuitively just by playing around with intuitive ZBLS

 

[Owen Morrison]

I did the same thing, I learned all of those intuitively just by playing around with intuitive ZBLS

I thought it was awesome that I always had an OLL I knew. some of my solutions were terrible tho