The New Method / Substep / Concept Idea Thread

[Berkmann18]

New? 3x3x3

1) build a 1x2x3 on the cube anywhere you like but it will be rotated to the B-face so it sits on the LD
2) build a 2x2x2 on the ULF or ULB using Uw and R moves
2a) place one e-slice edge either in LF or LB
. 2b) build the "cap" on top of the 1x2x2 formed in the last substep to finish the 2x2x2
3) keeping orientation, place the 2nd e-slice edge on the left
4) rotate the F2L-1 to the base.
5) orient the remaining edges as in heise/ tripod
6) WV
7) PLL

Pros:
1) easy block building
2) ergonomic move sets
3) efficient
4) few rotations
5) good for use in combination with Meyer/yau/shadowslice-Meyer/OBTM due to the block formed during the reduction stage

Cons:
1) ... Block building? (if you don't like that)
2) built in rotations could be disorientating but shouldn't be too bad.

I mainly created this method for use in conjunction with the reduction methods although it is quite efficient and easy for the block building.

So, thoughts?

The first step is confusing, you say to place it on B so it's on LD, is it supposed to be on B or D ?


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[shadowslice e]

The first step is confusing, you say to place it on B so it's on LD, is it supposed to be on B or D ?

oh, sorry, I meant D

 

[Berkmann18]

Lol okay

 

[zyxantjcae654]

One thing that I have heard of doing (and have used a little) is making a 3/4 cross by inserting one of the cross edges, solving that side, and then using block building for the other side. I think that it is a good approach. I am also not against using D, F, and B moves as I think they provide some amazing shortcuts.

I experience few cases of that and this is what I do: I do cross, right? But sometimes there is a need for L Cross Edge, or R, not to be placed on the D layer so that there will be an easy F2L case for R CE, or L. Example, I could bring down the L CE to complete the cross but would ruin a connected F2L pair for the R CE; I would just insert the pair as in Fridrich, letting the L CE wander around. Then, I would continue to NoOrientationChange Fridrich Case for the slot left for R CE. Then use ZZF2L on the left side. I know that anyone would probably think that it was still ZZ but my intention to do the cross is for me to deduct possible places for the E-slice edges, making it easier to locate them. As in Fridrich when sometimes an F2L pair comes first than the remaining CEs(XCross).

 

[adimare]

This is what most newcomers to ZZ do the first days after learning the method. It is not better, EO cross is sometimes a good start but forcing yourself to do it on every solve is a limitation, not an improvement on the method.

 

[shadowslice e]

I would like to think of myself as one of the "method innovators" you talk about but I would still like to stress the importance of researching each of the methods to see if it has already proposed, particularly if it is an F2L 3x3x3 variant. In this case there is a whole section in the wiki: https://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/EOLine dedicated to it. Reasons included in the article list reasons against it such as a harder lookahead and a less efficient F2L due to restrictions of moves to only quarter turns for the R&L faces. If you would take my opinion, CFOP works because you can do whatever needs to be done to pair up the edges and corners whereas ZZ works for the opposite reason: you have a restricted move set so you can solve without rotations (a key aspect of CFOP F2L) thus allowing easy block building. In addition, ZZ frequently requires you to use the R face to more easily pair the pairs for the L face and this is somewhat taken away when you add the extra cross piece that you have to preserve.

So, while I admire your determination to promote innovation, I would still like to stress the importance of research. This may also be another useful link for you: https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?40975-The-New-Method-Substep-Concept-Idea-Thread and be sure to take a look in the constructive discussion area (especially the constructive speedcubing discussions section of it.

 

[zyxantjcae654]

LearntEO+CFOPbeforeLearningZZ

Please consider this, assuming the orientation of the scramble as the orientation of your solve: SCRAMBLE: (D' R' D' U' L2 D2 L D B2 U2 L R2 B L D2 B' F U L B D B F' D F') EO: r' U M' [U' D] F'(F', transition to cross because not on the correct adjacency with the F CE on DR) Cross: D2 R [U' D] [L2 R2](pairing is very obvious) 1st: B2 U2 B2 U2 B2 2nd: D L' U L [U2 D'](U2, transition to 3rd) 3rd: L' U2 L [U' D'](change priority) L' U L [U' D](U', transition to WV) WVLS: L' U L' D' L U L' D L2 PLL: U x z2(set) L2 D2 L' U' L D2 L' U L'. The turns in brackets are opposite turns usually to serve as transition.

 

[shadowslice e]

Please consider this, assuming the orientation of the scramble as the orientation of your solve: SCRAMBLE: (D' R' D' U' L2 D2 L D B2 U2 L R2 B L D2 B' F U L B D B F' D F') EO: r' U M' [U' D] F'(F', transition to cross because not on the correct adjacency with the F CE on DR) Cross: D2 R [U' D] [L2 R2](pairing is very obvious) 1st: B2 U2 B2 U2 B2 2nd: D L' U L [U2 D'](U2, transition to 3rd) 3rd: L' U2 L [U' D'](change priority) L' U L [U' D](U', transition to WV) WVLS: L' U L' D' L U L' D L2 PLL: U x z2(set) L2 D2 L' U' L D2 L' U L'. The turns in brackets are opposite turns usually to serve as transition.

I'm not saying that the Eo cross is always a bad thing, but limiting yourself to doing it every time without variation is not a good idea as there are cases that will be much worse for a cross than a line as the cross, as I said before, is quite restricting even though there are few actually solved pieces.

 

[2180161]

New? 3x3x3

1) build a 1x2x3 on the cube anywhere you like but it will be rotated to the D-face so it sits on the LD
2) build a 2x2x2 on the ULF or ULB using Uw and R moves
2a) place one e-slice edge either in LF or LB
. 2b) build the "cap" on top of the 1x2x2 formed in the last substep to finish the 2x2x2
3) keeping orientation, place the 2nd e-slice edge on the left
4) rotate the F2L-1 to the base.
5) orient the remaining edges as in heise/ tripod
6) WV
7) PLL

Pros:
1) easy block building
2) ergonomic move sets
3) efficient
4) few rotations
5) good for use in combination with Meyer/yau/shadowslice-Meyer/OBTM due to the block formed during the reduction stage

Cons:
1) ... Block building? (if you don't like that)
2) built in rotations could be disorientating but shouldn't be too bad.

I mainly created this method for use in conjunction with the reduction methods although it is quite efficient and easy for the block building.

So, thoughts?

Estimated moves count? (HTM and STM). Seems useful for FMC. why not do the first step on D right away to remove a rotation?

Also, a crappy 3x3 method, simply a ZZ variant.


EOline

Left block

Right square in BR

Solve corners while preserving EO (Not sure on number of algs, or recognition)

OR insert FRD corner, COLL

L5E

Pros: Decent move count, Still RUL, RU after step 4

Cons: Algs, look-ahead into L5E isnt good, also bad Recog for L5E (I think)

 

[zyxantjcae654]

Do you use D, F2, B2, and cube rotations? And where do you use them? Also, I notice some relationships in shifting to Roux--at least I know the idea of Roux. I'm beginning to lose hope in this site. I had thought to just research myself. But recently I give in to the fact that this site would really help. If this one is really stupid than any other experimental methods, please tell me to leave. But I got SOME info here about ZZ LS when the corner is permuted and the edge is on U layer. Is that stupid, too?

 

[shadowslice e]

Estimated moves count? (HTM and STM). Seems useful for FMC. why not do the first step on D right away to remove a rotation?

~50moves OBTM. Just depends how good you are at block building really. I generally get to the F2L-1 stage in about 20-27 moves on avergae

The only real reason i don't do the block on the bottom is because I use Roux so I'm much better at building on the left

 

[shadowslice e]

Do you use D, F2, B2, and cube rotations? And where do you use them? Also, I notice some relationships in shifting to Roux--at least I know the idea of Roux. I'm beginning to lose hope in this site. I had thought to just research myself. But recently I give in to the fact that this site would really help. If this one is really stupid than any other experimental methods, please tell me to leave. But I got SOME info here about ZZ LS when the corner is permuted and the edge is on U layer. Is that stupid, too?

ZZ is not my main method bit I think I can speak for many ZZ users as I don't use any real rotations until LS where I may rotate depending on the case. From there I only AUF, not rotate.

With the D, B2 and F2 moves, I simply use them to pair edges if the shortcut they provide is worth the sacrifice of some lookahead (say of it gave me a 2 move pair compared to a 6 move pair) but again I try to avoid using them.

Regarding the use of solved corner+stray edge, this is a useful case to know if it comes up although it could easily be converted with R U R'.

The method you outlined above, as I stated before, is not the most useful variant for the aforementioned reasons. But please do not take this the wrong way. The site is still useful but generally the consensus of the whole community is right and you need to know when to stop arguing about a concept/method (it took me a week or two to really suss out when).

So, please, follow the advice of the other cubers and do research beforehand to make sure your concept is actually new (as far as your research can see) because this is one of the things that annoys poeple the most, especially if they have been on thw forums for a long time as they will doubtless have seen methods proposed dozens of times and each time seen them die out so they will know why the method died out and what makes a method die out.

Again, I hope that I am not being too harsh here, but i do want you to understand the point I'm trying to get across.

 

[GuRoux]

Do you use D, F2, B2, and cube rotations? And where do you use them? Also, I notice some relationships in shifting to Roux--at least I know the idea of Roux. I'm beginning to lose hope in this site. I had thought to just research myself. But recently I give in to the fact that this site would really help. If this one is really stupid than any other experimental methods, please tell me to leave. But I got SOME info here about ZZ LS when the corner is permuted and the edge is on U layer. Is that stupid, too?

D, F2 and B2 are good to use. cube rotation for some LS. there are a whole bunch of zz variants like the one you describe. perhaps don't stick to using one all the time but incorporate all of them into your solves. i don't know how bad eo+cross is but i see good zz users doing when it's only a couple moves extra or eo+3edges.

 

[TDM]

I use D moves fairly frequently in ZZ since they can be very useful for keyholing in both edges and corners. F2 I use rarely, e.g. F2 R' F2 R in F2L, but I do use it occasionally. Never B2 though.

 

[zyxantjcae654]

Okay. Just give me a site(no sarcasms), maybe, or threads here about the do's and don't's in cubing, some hard cases, etc. I do not quite understand. Because the posts I am receiving is not related about the general help I want, like on the title. I thought a legal thread would die out if let unanswered. But I still insist some miscellaneous subsets of ZZF2L with cross as base. Treat these as subsets of Fridrich F2L among oriented edges. Okay, not for speed sake but for love. I won't argue that it is the fastest. Oh, about the proposing. Don't worry, I will not name an assumably fastest method for myself. That's hassle. Actually, that was offending. I did not come here to brag. I have read before that EO can be used in various methods so I anticipated someone to know EO+CFOP. Yeah, I think at the link you have given. I would have named it JCAE method. Just kidding.

 

[Petro Leum]

i have no clue what you are trying to say.

to the topic before:

I think using D moves in ZZF2L is very important to reduce movecount. although RUD is my best moveset, i rarely do it, and it's a shame. i have some last slot algorithms that indeed use F moves, and some that i do a y/y' rotation for (only the ones where the edge is already solved) just because i can do the mirror faster. i dont usually use y2/F2/B2 during F2L, and i think it's not a good idea.

you can use z and <RU> for the left block if your <LU> is much worse.

 

[xchippy]

I think the move count would be way too high in this method. It's hard to be color neutral when you have to orient edges and doing ys in CFOP solves is much better than having to orient edges and not be color neutral

 

[zyxantjcae654]

i have no clue what you are trying to say.

to the topic before:

I think using D moves in ZZF2L is very important to reduce movecount. although RUD is my best moveset, i rarely do it, and it's a shame. i have some last slot algorithms that indeed use F moves, and some that i do a y/y' rotation for (only the ones where the edge is already solved) just because i can do the mirror faster. i dont usually use y2/F2/B2 during F2L, and i think it's not a good idea.

you can use z and <RU> for the left block if your <LU> is much worse.

Do you sometimes intend to just insert a mispair, ex. DBL and FL, into the slot of the corner then solve the adjacent corner and edge that should be in the first slot, relative ex. DFL and BL, and just do an edge switch, relative ex. L2 U2 L2 U2 L2? Is it recommended?

 

[shadowslice e]

Do you sometimes intend to just insert a mispair, ex. DBL and FL, into the slot of the corner then solve the adjacent corner and edge that should be in the first slot, relative ex. DFL and BL, and just do an edge switch, relative ex. L2 U2 L2 U2 L2? Is it recommended?

It's possible and perfectly doable but I think it's probably better to do a keyhole in that case.

 

[zyxantjcae654]

It's possible and perfectly doable but I think it's probably better to do a keyhole in that case.

Do you mean, with the example, D'>>L>>insertMispair>>L'>>D2>>doAnotherCase? Yes or no, thanks. If no, of course you would add another solution, which will help.