# The New Method / Substep / Concept Idea Thread

##### Member
it is pretty similar to hexagonal francisco.
That's where I got the idea, I saw hexagonal francisco and I thought "maybe this could be less of a meme if we removed the DB edge and did LSE instead

#### dudefaceguy

##### Member
or maybe you can solve corners directly?

- with a repeated trigger and its mirror and inverse (8355 style), although this is not very efficient

- with two corner 3-cycles (Heise style), but this may have parity since edges are not solved yet (could someone please confirm this parity? does it require something like an N-perm in some cases as I suspect?)
I came up with a commutator-only CMLL method that I describe in my 4x4 method here:

It includes an explanation and solution for odd corner parity.

#### Cubingcubecuber

##### Member
Is there a 2x2 method in which you solve a face while doing OLL, and than do PBL? If so please tell me. Thank you

#### efattah

##### Member
The Gan 356i smart cube has great potential in rapidly examining move counts in speed solves vs. slower solves, but at the moment the device is hindered by very poor software that can't detect or calculate M/M2 moves correctly. Once they fix the software it will be an awesome tool in the arsenal for new method development. Reconstructing solves manually is very time consuming, and how many times have we asked such questions as what has lower moves, Roux or ZBRoux? If top cubers had 356i cubes with proper software, the questions would already be answered.

#### WoowyBaby

##### Member
Is there a 2x2 method in which you solve a face while doing OLL, and than do PBL? If so please tell me. Thank you
Well for Ortega, you make a face, then do OLL, then do PBL, but you're asking for a method that you make two opposite faces simultaneously?
Sorry to say, but nothing like that exists. The only closest thing that kind of? does that is Guimond.

In Guimond if you predict your seperation then you can get two opposite faces in ~7 moves, one-looked in inspection, and then you end your solve with PBL. Although this probably isn't exactly what you're thinking.

Here's some examples of doing both faces at once then ending with PBL-

Scramble: F U R' F2 U R' F' R' U2
(x y)
R' U' R U2 R' U2 R2 // Both Faces
D' R2 U' B2 U2 R2 U' R2 U2 // PBL

Scramble: F' U' R' F R' U R U' R
(y2)
U R' U R' // Both Faces
D' L D' L F2 L' D L' // PBL

Is this the general idea you have? I'm still not quite sure.

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#### Wish Lin

##### Member
How about a NS 2.0 Alg set with one corner in the bottom twisted? Kind of like 2x2’s TCLL set.

#### efattah

##### Member
How about a NS 2.0 Alg set with one corner in the bottom twisted? Kind of like 2x2’s TCLL set.
These suggestions are vaguely similar to what I proposed a long time ago for Roux solvers to solve the FR pair with the edge flipped then use Waterman Set 3 to finish L6E which will flip the edge during L6E.

whats is ns 2.0?

#### Cubingcubecuber

##### Member
Well for Ortega, you make a face, then do OLL, then do PBL, but you're asking for a method that you make two opposite faces simultaneously?
Sorry to say, but nothing like that exists. The only closest thing that kind of? does that is Guimond.

In Guimond if you predict your seperation then you can get two opposite faces in ~7 moves, one-looked in inspection, and then you end your solve with PBL. Although this probably isn't exactly what you're thinking.

Here's some examples of doing both faces at once then ending with PBL-

Scramble: F U R' F2 U R' F' R' U2
(x y)
R' U' R U2 R' U2 R2 // Both Faces
D' R2 U' B2 U2 R2 U' R2 U2 // PBL

Scramble: F' U' R' F R' U R U' R
(y2)
U R' U R' // Both Faces
D' L D' L F2 L' D L' // PBL

Is this the general idea you have? I'm still not quite sure.
Yay!!
I just wanted to make sure this method was new before claiming it as my own. I will call it KFF, FF being first face. In it you simultaneously orient the corners and solve the first face, than you do PBL. BTW, that was what I meant.

#### ImmolatedMarmoset

##### Member
Yay!!
I just wanted to make sure this method was new before claiming it as my own. I will call it KFF, FF being first face. In it you simultaneously orient the corners and solve the first face, than you do PBL. BTW, that was what I meant.
Whoa there, not so fast. How are you getting to the oriented corners stage and solve the first face? Both of those things together are pretty much impossible to do intuitively. If you’re going to post something to the thread, you should at least do a few example solves for yourself to make sure it works, provide in depth details for how to solve with the method on your post, and probably include an example solve or two.

#### Cubingcubecuber

##### Member
Example Solves For KFF

Scramble: U’ R F U’ F2 R’ U F’
KFF: x’ z’ R U R2 U’ R2 U2 R2 U’ R2 U’ R2 U2 R
PBL: U R2 U’ B2 U2 R2 U R2 U2

Scramble: R F2 R’ F’ R’ U R2 F2 R’ U’
KFF: R’ U’ R2 U R’ U’ R’ F R F’
PBL: D’ R’ U R’ F’ R U R’ U’ R’ F R2 U’ R’ U’ R2

#### ImmolatedMarmoset

##### Member
Example Solves For KFF

Scramble: U’ R F U’ F2 R’ U F’
KFF: x’ z’ R U R2 U’ R2 U2 R2 U’ R2 U’ R2 U2 R
PBL: U R2 U’ B2 U2 R2 U R2 U2

Scramble: R F2 R’ F’ R’ U R2 F2 R’ U’
KFF: R’ U’ R2 U R’ U’ R’ F R F’
PBL: D’ R’ U R’ F’ R U R’ U’ R’ F R2 U’ R’ U’ R2
It’s certainly an interesting idea, but it’s really just Ortega with two intuitive faces, something that would at least be hard for me to inspect in 15 seconds. I like that there is a skipped step, but it doesn’t seem as efficient as CLL+ or HD-G (in the 12-15 move range) so if you were trying to go for world class times with this method I’m not sure it’d work.

#### OreKehStrah

##### Member
Just curious, is there any documentation on skewb tcll? I've been thinking about it for a while and know a couple full TCLL algs and made and intermediate version that orients the twisted corner and puts the correct center on the U face.

#### PapaSmurf

##### Member
The Gan 356i smart cube has great potential in rapidly examining move counts in speed solves vs. slower solves, but at the moment the device is hindered by very poor software that can't detect or calculate M/M2 moves correctly. Once they fix the software it will be an awesome tool in the arsenal for new method development. Reconstructing solves manually is very time consuming, and how many times have we asked such questions as what has lower moves, Roux or ZBRoux? If top cubers had 356i cubes with proper software, the questions would already be answered.
The thing with ZBRoux is that by all accounts it is equal to Roux, just with so much more effort. You need to learn 493 algs and learn ZBLL recog and from multiple angles. Even when that is mastered, someone doing Roux could optimise in so many other ways.
TL;DR, ZBRoux isn't worth it, so we don't need software to help us answer these questions. Although the features are nice, that is very true.

#### MethodNeutral

##### Member
An interesting ZZ variant I recently came up with: After F2L-1, orient last five corners. Then you are left with PLL + one F2L pair.

OL5C (Orientation of Last 5 Corners) only has 23 cases (same as CLS when the corner is inserted). The algs can all be 2-gen and it's similar to TSLE with handpicked good cases. Some are from WV, others are insertions cancelling into backsune, etc.

PLL+FR has 453 cases as far as I've calculated, but this includes PLL. It also includes TTLL. Recognition would be by recognizing CP, then recognizing the F2L case, and finally looking at 2 edges similar to ZBLL (but the two edges are always by an oriented corner).

This method is essentially an extension of ZZ-CT by simplifying TSLE and expanding TTLL. This allows for a faster orientation step and a similar permutation step with more cases. It has the same number of looks as ZBLL, but with easier recognition. However, its downfall is that it is not slot neutral. While decreasing F2L efficiency, this also means either FR or BL should be left open, because using FL or BR would require mirroring algs.

For now, I've genned algs for a 2-look permutation step: first the F2L pair + corners (35 cases), then EPLL. This could also be 2-looked by solving L5C (6 cases) then L5E (18+EPLL), and I'm sure there are other ways.

Let me know what you think or if I should post an example solve!

#### PapaSmurf

##### Member
In terms of alg count it's better than ZZ, but we already know that WLL (the set where the corner is solved) has bad algs. It also isn't slot neutral, which is a massive drawback when compared to ZZ-A. It does have a similar movecount though, which is one advantage.
Basically, I don't see how it's worth it over ZZ-A.

#### Angry_Mob

##### Member
New 2x2 thing?

This is a method for people who are learning or want to know CLL.
It's essentially using sunes to set up cases, but imo treating it as an alg gives it merit.

The Steps

1. Layer - just like CLL and LBL

2. Use a sune or anti-sune to set up a case w/ no corners oriented. These sets (Pi + H) have the easiest recognition imo, there are only 10 algs and almost all of them are good. It's good to treat each case in this step like an algorithm, even though there are only two.
Here are the angles (starting angles are from here http://www.cyotheking.com/ortega )
S - U' (AS)
AS - U2 (S)
U - U (AS)
T - U' (S)
L - U (AS or S)
Personally, I prefer backsune, but you can figure that out yourself

3. CLL - only 10 cases show up. It is impossible to skip this step which kind of sucks.

Overall I think this is pretty good because of its reasonable alg count, easy recognition and low move count (at least compared to LBL)
I don't know if this is 100% better than LBL, but it has its advantages.

Example solves (LBL vs this)

1.
Scramble:
U' F U' R' U' R U2 R' U2

LBL:
x
F R U2 R' //
R U R' U' R' F R F' //
U' R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' //
U' //

27 moves

This:
x
F R U2 R' //
U' R U R' U R U2 R'//
U' F R' F' R U2 R U R' U R U2 R' //

25 moves

2.
Scramble:
R U' F R' U F R2 F U' R'

LBL:
x2
F' R' U' R2 //
U2 R U R' U' R' F R F' //
U F R U' R' U' R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R F' //

31 moves (although there are shorter Y- perms)

This:
x2
F' R' U' R2 //
U R U R' U R U2 R' //
R' F R F' R U' R' U' R U' R' //

23 moves