[Help Thread] CFOP Discussion

[pipkiksass]

I start to realize why xxoxia calls it the suicide stage when you are just above 20 seconds. I'm aways doing slow solves and look ahead, which starts to get more and more comfortable.
But still, I just can't get any faster. If anything, when I time myself, I am usually worse than before because I turn slow and can't really look ahead too well. I guess that's because I put pressure on myself when I do timed solves?

Would it be better to just not time myself anymore at all until I learned to look ahead pretty well(not fast necessarily, but continuously)?

What's also weird is that when I do really slow solves, my look ahead usually is worse than when I speed up a little. I won't have a completely pause-free F2L, but I seems I have a better overview of the cube and my pairs if I don't turn very slow. Does anybody have the same experience?
In the same context, I tried the metronome thing, and I hate it. How many people actually learned proper look ahead with this method?

Hi Nilsibert - wow, it's like listening to myself!!! I'm currently averaging 19-21 seconds - I've had sub-20 Ao50's, but a 'normal' Ao50 is about 20.1-20.5. I've been stuck here for a while, probably because I don't have time to practice properly, I just solve, which I know is bad!

I've tried slow solves, and metronome solves, etc., etc... I still feel smoother when going fast. I can assure you though, this is purely perception - like me, you've got so used to recognising pairs quickly, you often FEEL like you're looking ahead, but you're not! What I do, and from your post I'd assume you're doing the same, is insert a pair and then frantically look round. Sometimes I find an easy pair straight away, almost seamlessly, but because I don't start looking until I've inserted the previous pair, or maybe one turn away, if I CAN'T find an easy pair, I'm stuffed. I waste 1-2 seconds and BANG, my solve is ruined.

The only thing that I'm finding helps is erik akkersdijk's technique of stopping 3 moves before inserting a pair, and finding the next pair. With the metronome, I find I just try to recognise as fast as possible - i.e. insert pair, oh crap where's my next pair, it's OK, I have 1/2 a second and... THERE, quick, turn the damned cube, PHEW, back in time with the metronome! The idea of Erik's method is you stop. You find the next pair. You finish your insertion (i.e. R U' R' or whatever), WITHOUT watching the pieces you insert. Instead, you watch the pieces you found, them move straight on to them. Once these pieces are 3 moves from solved, do the same again.

The theory is that, at first, you will need to physically stop to find the next pair. As you get better at doing this, you'll be able to find the next pair without ACTUALLY stopping. The idea is that lookahead isn't a skill you already have, but need to improve, but a skill you need to learn. All other methods of 'learning' lookahead assume an initial element of lookahead - this method actually teaches it.

Feel free to completely disregard what I'm saying, I may have completely misunderstood your post - I know you say you're already looking ahead a bit. I just feel that my experience is similar - I THINK I'm looking ahead, but I'm really just looking, and if an easy/obvious pair isn't on the U face after my insertion, I'm stuffed. My plan is to use Erik's method to teach myself to find the next pieces, even if they're not obvious/on the U face.

And do BLD cross so I can look ahead to F2L 1, but that's another story...

Good luck, I hope this helps.

 

[mark49152]

Nice idea, I will try that. I do lots of blind practice - solving one pair while mentally tracking another, with eyes closed. That's helped me track pieces without watching the ones I'm solving. But it's just as hard to find the pairs to track in the first place.

 

[Blade8227]

You should practice PLL and OLL and learn some more algs.

 

[mark49152]

You should practice PLL and OLL and learn some more algs.

Was that aimed at the person with 25 second F2L and 5 second LL...? :fp

@Pipkiksass: I tried Erik's method and it's good. I think what it helps most with is learning how to quickly set up the second pair, when you've been tracking rather than searching for it. I still believe though that the bread and butter of learning lookahead is blind inserts. As so many tutorials have pointed out, looking ahead to other things requires that you can insert any case without looking at it, so mastering that is the first step.

 

[pipkiksass]

@Pipkiksass: I tried Erik's method and it's good. I think what it helps most with is learning how to quickly set up the second pair, when you've been tracking rather than searching for it. I still believe though that the bread and butter of learning lookahead is blind inserts. As so many tutorials have pointed out, looking ahead to other things requires that you can insert any case without looking at it, so mastering that is the first step.

Lookahead = bane of my life!

Seriously though, my LL speed is adequate. Not great, but adequate. I'd say my cross is OK for my times, but not good. It's incredibly lacking in terms of efficiency. If I were to complete the systematic improvement spreadsheet, it would probably tell me that everything needs work, but I need to work on cross + F2L most of all.

I think this is symptomatic of the fact that I don't practice or, more accurately, I don't practice well! I only cube for a few hours a week, what with having a job and a young family, etc.. When I do find time to pick up a cube, I just want to solve it. What I should do is work on one of my many weaknesses; however what starts as e.g. a bld cross session rapidly just becomes another session!

So sometimes lookahead clicks for me. In fact, so much so that I occasionally find myself able to influence or set up the next pair, or do some basic multislotting, and I get sub 17, sub 16 or even sub 15 times. Other times, I'll insert my pair then... er... look for a corner... nope... er... oh, it's right in front of me, there goes 3 seconds! Sup 20, or even sup 25 (these days, I only typically get sup 25 when I truly screw something up, like wrong slot or messing up what I think is a 1-look OLL I know).

Personally, I've done so many solves that I don't think blind inserts is the issue; I'm 110% comfortable with most (!) of my inserts. In my case, the issue is bad habits learnt through hours of just mindless solving. I need to drill out the bad habits by consciously looking ahead, which is why I think Erik's method (when I can be bothered to practice properly) works well for me. It forces you to stop prior to the insert, rather than post-insert. I firmly believe that this is my problem: I don't need to watch the insert, so I just need to change when I look for my next pair.

The moral of the story: don't get into bad habits in the first place!!!

I'm off to attempt to practice some lookahead for 20 minutes before I have to get back to work.

 

[mark49152]

So during the insert you track the next pair, but then, what are you watching while you set that pair up? Presumably that pair itself.

The difference with what I'm recommending is that the pause is in a different place, meaning that you track the next pair during setup as well. Logically, the most effective approach would be a mixture of both, so you get practice at both tracking the next pair during setup, and smooth transition from insert to setup.

I know what you mean about job and young family. My strategy is to alternate between targeted practice such as blind F2L, for a couple of weeks, then solves for a couple of weeks. Generally I'm slower when I go back to solves but after a while I start to see the benefits of the targeted practice kick in both in better technique and reduction of times.

 

[pipkiksass]

So during the insert you track the next pair, but then, what are you watching while you set that pair up?

My hands, the wall, staring blankly into space...

Like I say, bad habits!

Absolutely agree though, in an ideal world lookahead would be completely seamless and begin as soon as you spot the previous pair. And as soon as you spot them you immediately forget about them and move on to the next pair... Easier said than done though, at least in my case. I'm hoping to move the pause from post-insert to pre-insert, then maybe from there to even earlier. Unfortunately my bad habits are proving hard to break.

 

[mark49152]

Exactly right, it's all about habits. I find that I pick up a cube and solve and revert to pauses between pairs. I try to look ahead but it's difficult. So I do some blind practice for a few minutes, then when I go back to solving, lookahead is easier. The practice is more about reconditioning than learning... and it seems to be taking forever.

This is why I disagree with people who say "don't learn xxx until you're sub-20". For some things like alg sets, that might make sense, but for technique, like lookahead or finger tricks or handling a fast cube, unless you learn properly from the start you just end up developing bad habits that have to be unravelled later.

 

[larosh12]

I am not that good but my only suggestion to sub 30 guys who want to be in sub 20 is " do untimed solves " . solve the cube slowly about (40-50 secs) 5-10 times before starting your averages . but don't make any pauses in that solve. I mean 2 tps sole but no pause just observe how are the pieces moving . second advice "try to use you un prefferable hand . I was not getting into sub 20 after a month I was in sub 30 . I started this technique and can get 3-4 sub 20's in 10 solves.

 

[Nilsibert]

Hi Nilsibert - wow, it's like listening to myself!!! I'm currently averaging 19-21 seconds - I've had sub-20 Ao50's, but a 'normal' Ao50 is about 20.1-20.5. I've been stuck here for a while, probably because I don't have time to practice properly, I just solve, which I know is bad!

I've tried slow solves, and metronome solves, etc., etc... I still feel smoother when going fast. I can assure you though, this is purely perception - like me, you've got so used to recognising pairs quickly, you often FEEL like you're looking ahead, but you're not! What I do, and from your post I'd assume you're doing the same, is insert a pair and then frantically look round. Sometimes I find an easy pair straight away, almost seamlessly, but because I don't start looking until I've inserted the previous pair, or maybe one turn away, if I CAN'T find an easy pair, I'm stuffed. I waste 1-2 seconds and BANG, my solve is ruined.

The only thing that I'm finding helps is erik akkersdijk's technique of stopping 3 moves before inserting a pair, and finding the next pair. With the metronome, I find I just try to recognise as fast as possible - i.e. insert pair, oh crap where's my next pair, it's OK, I have 1/2 a second and... THERE, quick, turn the damned cube, PHEW, back in time with the metronome! The idea of Erik's method is you stop. You find the next pair. You finish your insertion (i.e. R U' R' or whatever), WITHOUT watching the pieces you insert. Instead, you watch the pieces you found, them move straight on to them. Once these pieces are 3 moves from solved, do the same again.

The theory is that, at first, you will need to physically stop to find the next pair. As you get better at doing this, you'll be able to find the next pair without ACTUALLY stopping. The idea is that lookahead isn't a skill you already have, but need to improve, but a skill you need to learn. All other methods of 'learning' lookahead assume an initial element of lookahead - this method actually teaches it.

Feel free to completely disregard what I'm saying, I may have completely misunderstood your post - I know you say you're already looking ahead a bit. I just feel that my experience is similar - I THINK I'm looking ahead, but I'm really just looking, and if an easy/obvious pair isn't on the U face after my insertion, I'm stuffed. My plan is to use Erik's method to teach myself to find the next pieces, even if they're not obvious/on the U face.

And do BLD cross so I can look ahead to F2L 1, but that's another story...

Good luck, I hope this helps.

Completely forgot to reply.

Thanks for the tips! And you're half right, when doing the metronome thing, i make the same mistakes as you. Also it just feels unnatural to always go at the exact same speed.
I think you misunderstand what I mean when I said I am better at looking ahead when i speed up just a little. I don't usually insert a pair and then look around. I do look ahead into my next pair as good as I can, not watching the one I'm inserting. But that seems to be easier when I'm not completely turning slow.

I'll try eriks technique, it seems to make sense. That way I'd assume I would be able to learn to understand the cube better i.e. what those 3 moves do to other pieces. I think it's also a good idea to completely predict your next pair before doing the last 3 moves. Otherwise, if you just turn slowly, you may be watching the next 2 pieces, but you might easily lose track of them.
Thanks again for the tip, I'll definitely try that out.

Btw I've gotten more and more sub 20 avgs, so I guess I improved a little. The problem is that when I time myself, I really have to force and constantly remind myself to slow down and look ahead. I think I'll stop timing myself for real now until I properly learned to look ahead that it becomes the norm, otherwise I just fall back into bad habbits.

 

[mark49152]

I persevered with metronome training for ages and concluded it was not particularly effective, for me. I think that's because lookahead depends on muscle memory for inserting the current pair without watching it. Forcing myself to turn at a metronome pace seemed to prevent muscle memory from working.

 

[kunparekh18]

Wanted to share, I was stuck at the sub-16.5 barrier for a very very long time. I went around asking everyone what specific part I should improve on. I couldn't even sub-2 cross AND was pausing for my first pair. So a friend suggested I go full tps for cross. I told him I can't even look at my first pair while I'm doing it slow, how could I do that if I went full tps for cross? He told me to try sub-2ing every cross, and I would be able to look at my first pair with practice. I followed that advice, and yesterday I got a 15.5 second avg50 with many sub-15 avg5s in there. Hope this helps you people out there. I also realized I paused for the same amount (around 0.5-1 second) when I went full speed for cross and when I went slow.

 

[Hypocrism]

Wanted to share, I was stuck at the sub-16.5 barrier for a very very long time. I went around asking everyone what specific part I should improve on. I couldn't even sub-2 cross AND was pausing for my first pair. So a friend suggested I go full tps for cross. I told him I can't even look at my first pair while I'm doing it slow, how could I do that if I went full tps for cross? He told me to try sub-2ing every cross, and I would be able to look at my first pair with practice. I followed that advice, and yesterday I got a 15.5 second avg50 with many sub-15 avg5s in there. Hope this helps you people out there. I also realized I paused for the same amount (around 0.5-1 second) when I went full speed for cross and when I went slow.

But at that level you should be learning how to predict the pair, not turn faster. It's a temporary solution..

 

[kunparekh18]

But at that level you should be learning how to predict the pair, not turn faster. It's a temporary solution..

That I am learning. Both combined will improve my times more.

 

[Deleted member 19792]

What about skipping OLL with the Winter Variation? Most of the pairs in reconstructions are already paired up and ready to be inserted. Why not try that to get faster?

 

[Ranzha]

What about skipping OLL with the Winter Variation? Most of the pairs in reconstructions are already paired up and ready to be inserted. Why not try that to get faster?

There's more than just WV to consider, but that's certainly an option. If you like, also check out Magic Wondeful on Cubefreak; it's really cool.

 

[Ruben]

a problem a lot of cubers, including me, have is not knowing how to practice. people say practice practice practice just practice.....BUT HOW!! I have the time, the motivation, and the desire to lower my times but i dont know the correct way to practice my solves. i currently avg 33 seconds, and i've been at 33 for a really long time, but no matter how much i practice my times dont drop. does any one know some goodd tips or a good tutorial to help lower times?

 

[Brest]

a problem a lot of cubers, including me, have is not knowing how to practice. people say practice practice practice just practice.....BUT HOW!! I have the time, the motivation, and the desire to lower my times but i dont know the correct way to practice my solves. i currently avg 33 seconds, and i've been at 33 for a really long time, but no matter how much i practice my times dont drop. does any one know some goodd tips or a good tutorial to help lower times?

How to practice

 

[Ruben]

How to practice

Thanks dude!

 

[Eva]

In step 2 it says
2 Look OLL
Edge Orientation - 2 algorithms
Corner Orientation - 7 algorithms

2 Look PLL
Corner Permutation - 3 Algorithms Aa/Ab and E/V/Y/Na/Nb
Edge Permutation - 4 algorithms - Ua, Ub, Z, H

Shouldn't it be OLL edge 3 algo's and PLL corner 2 algo's.