Blindsolving Discussion and Help

[Zane_C]

I use Old Pochmann corners and edges at the moment, and I am planning on switching to Turbo edges in the very near future. What should I do about corners? Is there a Turbo-like method that exists for corners, or should I attempt to make the jump straight to simple commutators? OR, should I just stay with Old Pochmann corners? Thanks in advance.

Turbo can be applied to the corners by setting up 2 corner targets to UFL/LFU/FLU or UBR/BUR/RBU and solving with one of 18 algorithms/commutators. If you're considering learning Turbo for the corners, I recommend that you jump straight to commutators. The reason I say this is because if you're willing to go to the effort of 'memorising' 18 algorithms, you should be willing to master 8 move commutators (also known as 'Pure commutators').

Any 3-cycle can be solved with a conjugated Pure commutator, so it's not necessary to learn the optimal A9, cyclic shift, column or per-special. You often won't require any setup moves, but when you do they will usually be 1 or 2 moves long. It would be a good idea to memorise the optimal 3 moves to setup tricky per-special cases. Pure comms are explained here, as well as recognising per-specials.

 

[Riley]

I don't get how to do M2 edges, and OP corners, while solving corners first. I normally would memo edges, memo corners, solve edges, solve corners. But then I have problems remembering corners, because I use audio memo (for corners) which is why I want to solve corners first. If there was an odd number of Y-perms/J perms which switched UL and UB, what would you do? Would you do the parity alg for M2? (U' F2 U M2 U' F2 U) But that would make the centers rotated, and then M-slice edges would be the opposite of how you used to remember how to execute them. And then, what would happen if there was an odd number of swaps for edges? Thanks.

 

[aronpm]

I don't get how to do M2 edges, and OP corners, while solving corners first. I normally would memo edges, memo corners, solve edges, solve corners. But then I have problems remembering corners, because I use audio memo (for corners) which is why I want to solve corners first. If there was an odd number of Y-perms/J perms which switched UL and UB, what would you do? Would you do the parity alg for M2? (U' F2 U M2 U' F2 U) But that would make the centers rotated, and then M-slice edges would be the opposite of how you used to remember how to execute them. And then, what would happen if there was an odd number of swaps for edges? Thanks.

After you have solved all of the corners, you can do another Y perm, to fix edges and leave ULB and URF swapped. Then you can solve edges as normal using M2. When you've finished edges (and your M slice is off by M2), you can do U' F2 U M2 U' F2 U, which fixes the M slice and leaves a Y perm to solve the cube.

Alternatively you can just not solve the last corner target, so doing the M2 parity alg, you just set it up and do Y perm to solve the cube. It's 2 less Y perms in your solve but you have to remember the last corner target for the entire solve.

 

[Yuxuibbs]

How do you memo numbers for corners? I'm doing pictures but it takes forever and I can't find good words for them.

 

[aronpm]

How do you memo numbers for corners? I'm doing pictures but it takes forever and I can't find good words for them.

As far as I know, using numbers is only feasible if you're using an orient-permute method like 3OP. That cuts the number of numbers from 21 to 7.

You would just have a number for each corner piece and just memorise the numbers, I guess. I don't know a good way to do it, but when I did 2OP (not 3OP, lols) I would replace number strings like "271" with "bus" because 271 is a bus I catch, etc.

 

[Zane_C]

EDIT: Looks like Aron ninja'd me, all well.

If there was an odd number of Y-perms/J perms which switched UL and UB, what would you do?

So essentially, you're asking how to deal with parity when memorising corners last and executing them first?

Here's one system you could use:

- Memorise the edges, once you've done this you'll know whether you have parity or not. (ie. odd targets)
- Memorise the corners, but make sure to leave UBL and UBR swapped
- Solve the corners how you've memorised, therefore UBL and UBR will finish swapped.
- Solve all the edges normally and finish with M2 y L2 (T-perm) L2.

There are two ways to finish the corners with UBL and UBR swapped:
- The efficient approach is to mentally swap the pieces that belong at UBL and UBR. Looking at a solved cube, you have to treat the UBL as if it's UBR and vice-versa. So if you're the buffer piece truly belongs at UBR, you will break into a new cycle.
- The easy way: Solve the corners normally, except finish with a J-perm, swapping UL/UB and UBL/UBR.

Would you do the parity alg for M2? (U' F2 U M2 U' F2 U)

That can be used if you execute the edges first.

 

[aronpm]

I'm trying to understand commutators, I get the main idea. However, I heard that you can apply commutators in BLD solving, but aren't commutators intuitive? So would I have to memorize these commutators or just do them intuitively for BLD solving? (mainly looking at corners here) If you do them intuitively, wouldn't that actually require some thinking right on the spot making commutators slow?

Yeah, commutators are intuitive (for the most part; I don't suggest trying to intuitively use "cyclic shifts" or "per specials"). There are two options: make up commutators on the spot during solves, or make up every commutator before-hand and learn them all like algs. The latter option has seemed more popular, and is how I learned them, but both options work and both lead to the same effect of "recall word -> execute the alg for it".

Learning all the commutators before-hand provides the benefit of being able to choose the fastest commutators, but it's a very very time consuming process. I helped Ryan Reese with his edge commutators for UF, and it took him a long time to even write down a commutator for each case, let alone learn them.

 

[Riley]

After you have solved all of the corners, you can do another Y perm, to fix edges and leave ULB and URF swapped. Then you can solve edges as normal using M2. When you've finished edges (and your M slice is off by M2), you can do U' F2 U M2 U' F2 U, which fixes the M slice and leaves a Y perm to solve the cube.

Alternatively you can just not solve the last corner target, so doing the M2 parity alg, you just set it up and do Y perm to solve the cube. It's 2 less Y perms in your solve but you have to remember the last corner target for the entire solve.

Thank you very much, I think I understand. Just to clarify, for the first option you gave, that's only if there were an odd number off swaps in corners? And I just thought about this, but if there's an odd number of corners swapped, does that mean there's always going to be an odd number of edge swaps too? And same if there was even swaps to even swaps? And vise versa?

 

[aronpm]

Thank you very much, I think I understand. Just to clarify, for the first option you gave, that's only if there were an odd number off swaps in corners? And I just thought about this, but if there's an odd number of corners swapped, does that mean there's always going to be an odd number of edge swaps too? And same if there was even swaps to even swaps? And vise versa?

Yep, only do that for parity, and yes, edges and corners have the same parity, so if one is odd, so is the other.

 

[Yuxuibbs]

As far as I know, using numbers is only feasible if you're using an orient-permute method like 3OP. That cuts the number of numbers from 21 to 7.

You would just have a number for each corner piece and just memorise the numbers, I guess. I don't know a good way to do it, but when I did 2OP (not 3OP, lols) I would replace number strings like "271" with "bus" because 271 is a bus I catch, etc.

I'm using classic/old pochmann. I have lots of trouble finding visual stuff to connect to the colors.

 

[RyanReese09]

but it's a very very time consuming process. I helped Ryan Reese with his edge commutators for UF, and it took him a long time to even write down a commutator for each case, let alone learn them.

It didn't help I had to write my list twice ;_;. Thanks for that help aron .

PS-anyone wanting to know a fast alg for UF, just PM me for the individual case. I'll get around to posting my list sometime...

 

[RyanReese09]

Yes. It would be a +2.

 

[LordNikolai]

Two question for you:
1) How I recognize type of corners commutator? Pure and per special are easy, cyclic shif and columns are a bit harder, but how can I recognize quickly A9 and its cancellation and othrogonals?
2) There are edge commutator like this: M U2 M' U2 (4 HTM) I can use with a setup-antisetup, cancellations, I can reverse it and take it around the cube. There are other short commutator I can use like this?

 

[aronpm]

Two question for you:
1) How I recognize type of corners commutator? Pure and per special are easy, cyclic shif and columns are a bit harder, but how can I recognize quickly A9 and its cancellation and othrogonals?
2) There are edge commutator like this: M U2 M' U2 (4 HTM) I can use with a setup-antisetup, cancellations, I can reverse it and take it around the cube. There are other short commutator I can use like this?

A9s (with the exception of the A perm) all have an "adjacent non-interchangeable" pair, so once you see that it's either an A9, cyclic shift or column. For the cancellation, there are only two possible moves, both of which break the "adjacent non-interchangeable" pair. When it's broken with a quarter turn in the correct direction, it will create a possible interchange between the moved piece and the other piece from the "pair", and a half turn will create a possible interchange between the moved piece and the third remaining piece.

I don't know a lot about BH optimal edge commutators but I think all of the shortest ones are setups to M U2 M' U2 and simple variations (mirrors, inverse) of that.

 

[LordNikolai]

In Bryan's BH tutorial I read I can recognize orthogonals when all pieces are opposite and non-interchangeable like this: UBR-UFL-RUF?
In some case I can't think of a cancellation..in a lot of A9 I dont' see the cancellation and than i solve it in 10 HTM

 

[PandaCuber]

Can a stickerless Guhong be used as a BLD cube???

 

[Jaycee]

Can a stickerless Guhong be used as a BLD cube???

Yes.

 

[Yuxuibbs]

Can a stickerless Guhong be used as a BLD cube???

Yes. There was a stickerless cube used during a multi blind somewhere. I forgot which video.


EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[aronpm]

In Bryan's BH tutorial I read I can recognize orthogonals when all pieces are opposite and non-interchangeable like this: UBR-UFL-RUF?
In some case I can't think of a cancellation..in a lot of A9 I dont' see the cancellation and than i solve it in 10 HTM

UBR-UFL-RUF is an A9. There are only 2 faces you can turn for the setup, the F and B faces. Looking at half turns, F2 won't make RUF interchangeable with any any other, but B2 will make UBR interchangeable with UFL, so your setup will be on the B face, so you're left with B or B' as possible setups. B won't make UBR interchangeable with RUF so your setup is B'.

Yes. There was a stickerless cube used during a multi blind somewhere. I forgot which video.

It was Marcell Endrey's 19/19 former MultiBLD WR at WC11. Well, I don't know if there's a video, but I watched parts it on the livestream.

 

[Julian]