The method debate thread

[maticuber]

Cfop has a high move count in the wiki because it asumes that the solver uses cross, f2l, oll and pll.

You can lower the number if you do xcross, multi slotting, keyhole and some advanced LSLL.

 

[WoowyBaby]

The wiki doesn't even show a functioning method. The first step is EOArrow, which orients all edges, yet later you have to do HKOLL?? Which doesn't make sense as your edges are already oriented, so the number of algorithms would just be 7, just like OCLL. This confuses me. What really are the steps of originial Hawaiian Kociemba??

 

[Username: Username:]

Cfop has a high move count in the wiki because it asumes that the solver uses cross, f2l, oll and pll.

You can lower the number if you do xcross, multi slotting, keyhole and some advanced LSLL.

then in HK, you could also use tricks to lower that average movecount am I right? in my solve I don't do any tricks and I averaged around 49-high 50s with HK.

 

[Username: Username:]

The wiki doesn't even show a functioning method. The first step is EOArrow, which orients all edges, yet later you have to do HKOLL?? Which doesn't make sense as your edges are already oriented, so the number of algorithms would just be 7, just like OCLL. This confuses me. What really are the steps of originial Hawaiian Kociemba??

@Cubingcubecuber says that the EOArrow only orients the F2L edges. see the HK tutorial thread that is linked in the wiki.

 

[ProStar]

@Username: Username: let's do a training exercise. Pick a random scramble, and we will each do an example solve with it. I'll do CFOP and you do HK(with HKOLL and HKPLL if you want). I'm not as good as Owen, so it's fair. If you want you can try to get @Cubingcubecuber to do it since he's faster than me. Let's see if HK really has a much lower movecount than CFOP.

then in HK, you could also use tricks to lower that average movecount am I right?

In my solve I did an 8 move XEOArrow. I also did full EO to make COLL->L5EP possible.

 

[Owen Morrison]

@Username: Username: let's do a training exercise. Pick a random scramble, and we will each do an example solve with it. I'll do CFOP and you do HK(with HKOLL and HKPLL if you want). I'm not as good as Owen, so it's fair. If you want you can try to get @Cubingcubecuber to do it since he's faster than me. Let's see if HK really has a much lower movecount than CFOP.




In my solve I did an 8 move XEOArrow. I also did full EO to make COLL->L5EP possible.

How about I do CFOP and @Cubingcubecuber does HK?

 

[Cubingcubecuber]

@Username: Username: let's do a training exercise. Pick a random scramble, and we will each do an example solve with it. I'll do CFOP and you do HK(with HKOLL and HKPLL if you want). I'm not as good as Owen, so it's fair. If you want you can try to get @Cubingcubecuber to do it since he's faster than me. Let's see if HK really has a much lower movecount than CFOP.




In my solve I did an 8 move XEOArrow. I also did full EO to make COLL->L5EP possible.

I will soon, gotta eat lunch

 

[WoowyBaby]

In my solve I did an 8 move XEOArrow. I also did full EO to make COLL->L5EP possible.

And you also got the easiest L5EP case possible!
But still 47 movecount?
If I got an 8-move XCross and the easiest LL case possible I would most certainly, even in a real speedsolve where I could make mistakes, get under 47.
I'm starting to believe that HK averages atleast 55 moves.

 

[Owen Morrison]

I will soon, gotta eat lunch

U2 L F2 D' F2 D' F2 R2 U2 B2 L2 U R2 D' L' B U' L R2 F' L'

here is the scramble from CS Timer.

 

[maticuber]

then in HK, you could also use tricks to lower that average movecount am I right?

Technically you can do that with any method, the question is if that's really true to the method itself and to what a speedsolver does in a solve.

You can say, for example, that 1LLL is possible, and XXCross is doable in every solve.

It has happened, there has been official "cfop" solves with 11 moves to F2L-1, or with 1LLL.

Thing is, no method has been explored as deep as cfop, no other method has more extension, subsets, tricks, etc.

 

[ProStar]

How about I do CFOP and @Cubingcubecuber does HK?

This is to make it as fair as possible; CCC averages 12 with HK and I average 15-16 with CFOP. That way they can't complain it's since you're so much better at cubing.

I will soon, gotta eat lunch

Ok. We will use Owen's scramble to both do an example solve. Also you can use HKOLL and HKPLL if you want since that's what pure HK is

 

[Username: Username:]

How about I do CFOP and @Cubingcubecuber does HK?

In CFOP I average around high 50 moves, so clearly I'm not the best person to choose from.

 

[Owen Morrison]

This is to make it as fair as possible; CCC averages 12 with HK and I average 15-16 with CFOP. That way they can't complain it's since you're so much better at cubing.



Ok. Just pick the first scramble from whatever timer and post it here. Also you can use HKOLL and HKPLL if you want since that's what pure HK is

I think it should be me and @Cubingcubecuber because the time difference is much less. Although it wouldn't make a lot of difference because your solves are usually pretty efficient.

 

[Username: Username:]

Technically you can do that with any method, the question is if that's really true to the method itself and to what a speedsolver does in a solve.

You can say, for example, that 1LLL is possible, and XXCross is doable in every solve.

It has happened, there has been official "cfop" solves with 11 moves to F2L-1, or with 1LLL.

Thing is, no method has been explored as deep as cfop, no other method has more extension, subsets, tricks, etc.

If only the same thing was done to HK, more people researching HK, we already beat CFOP then. that's why we need more people using HK. Join the pineappleution.

 

[Owen Morrison]

@Cubingcubecuber let me know when you are done eating lunch, someone will find a new scramble so it will be more fair.

 

[ProStar]

*cough* *cough* sub-40 *cough* *cough* first try *cough* *cough*

 

[fun at the joy]

Ok sorry I'll admit I can't get sub-50 with the COLL L5E variant in 10 minutes but with regular HKOLL and HKPLL you can get to sub 50 and even sub 40 in 10 minutes. that doesn't mean the average movecount of CFOP is better than regular HK. you're basically putting me in so much disadvantages, can't use regular HK, can't do it in more than ten minute and I'm using a beginner HK variant which is equivalent to CFOP 3LLL which is inefficient.

then in HK, you could also use tricks to lower that average movecount am I right? in my solve I don't do any tricks and I averaged around 49-high 50s with HK.

wait what?

 

[Username: Username:]

wait what?

not in speedsolves, and there was a time limit on me.

 

[Cubingcubecuber]

@Cubingcubecuber let me know when you are done eating lunch, someone will find a new scramble so it will be more fair.

What’s the scramble?

 

[ProStar]

What’s the scramble?

*AHEM*

*cough* *cough* sub-40 *cough* *cough* first try *cough* *cough*

With Owen's scramble. I mean it was a stupid scramble, 3 free pairs and a PLL skip, but hey, I got an easy XEOArrow, good COLL and a 4 move L5EP when I did HK