• Welcome to the Speedsolving.com, home of the web's largest puzzle community!
    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to join discussions and access our other features.

    Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community of 40,000+ people from around the world today!

    If you are already a member, simply login to hide this message and begin participating in the community!

The method debate thread

WoowyBaby

Member
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
765
Location
Neptune
WCA
2018ISOM02
YouTube
Visit Channel
The wiki doesn't even show a functioning method. The first step is EOArrow, which orients all edges, yet later you have to do HKOLL?? Which doesn't make sense as your edges are already oriented, so the number of algorithms would just be 7, just like OCLL. This confuses me. What really are the steps of originial Hawaiian Kociemba??
 
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
1,177
Location
a Pokedex or somewhere near you.
Cfop has a high move count in the wiki because it asumes that the solver uses cross, f2l, oll and pll.

You can lower the number if you do xcross, multi slotting, keyhole and some advanced LSLL.
then in HK, you could also use tricks to lower that average movecount am I right? in my solve I don't do any tricks and I averaged around 49-high 50s with HK.
 
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
1,177
Location
a Pokedex or somewhere near you.
The wiki doesn't even show a functioning method. The first step is EOArrow, which orients all edges, yet later you have to do HKOLL?? Which doesn't make sense as your edges are already oriented, so the number of algorithms would just be 7, just like OCLL. This confuses me. What really are the steps of originial Hawaiian Kociemba??
@Cubingcubecuber says that the EOArrow only orients the F2L edges. see the HK tutorial thread that is linked in the wiki.
 

ProStar

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2019
Messages
6,253
Location
An uncolonized sector of the planet Mars
WCA
2020MAHO01
SS Competition Results
@Username: Username: let's do a training exercise. Pick a random scramble, and we will each do an example solve with it. I'll do CFOP and you do HK(with HKOLL and HKPLL if you want). I'm not as good as Owen, so it's fair. If you want you can try to get @Cubingcubecuber to do it since he's faster than me. Let's see if HK really has a much lower movecount than CFOP.


then in HK, you could also use tricks to lower that average movecount am I right?

In my solve I did an 8 move XEOArrow. I also did full EO to make COLL->L5EP possible.
 

Owen Morrison

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2019
Messages
1,953
Location
Tennessee
WCA
2017MORR06
YouTube
Visit Channel
@Username: Username: let's do a training exercise. Pick a random scramble, and we will each do an example solve with it. I'll do CFOP and you do HK(with HKOLL and HKPLL if you want). I'm not as good as Owen, so it's fair. If you want you can try to get @Cubingcubecuber to do it since he's faster than me. Let's see if HK really has a much lower movecount than CFOP.




In my solve I did an 8 move XEOArrow. I also did full EO to make COLL->L5EP possible.
How about I do CFOP and @Cubingcubecuber does HK?
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
757
Location
A Pineapple Orbiting Neptune
YouTube
Visit Channel
@Username: Username: let's do a training exercise. Pick a random scramble, and we will each do an example solve with it. I'll do CFOP and you do HK(with HKOLL and HKPLL if you want). I'm not as good as Owen, so it's fair. If you want you can try to get @Cubingcubecuber to do it since he's faster than me. Let's see if HK really has a much lower movecount than CFOP.




In my solve I did an 8 move XEOArrow. I also did full EO to make COLL->L5EP possible.
I will soon, gotta eat lunch
 

WoowyBaby

Member
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
765
Location
Neptune
WCA
2018ISOM02
YouTube
Visit Channel
In my solve I did an 8 move XEOArrow. I also did full EO to make COLL->L5EP possible.

And you also got the easiest L5EP case possible!
But still 47 movecount?
If I got an 8-move XCross and the easiest LL case possible I would most certainly, even in a real speedsolve where I could make mistakes, get under 47.
I'm starting to believe that HK averages atleast 55 moves.
 

maticuber

Member
Joined
May 18, 2020
Messages
76
WCA
2009MACA01
then in HK, you could also use tricks to lower that average movecount am I right?

Technically you can do that with any method, the question is if that's really true to the method itself and to what a speedsolver does in a solve.

You can say, for example, that 1LLL is possible, and XXCross is doable in every solve.

It has happened, there has been official "cfop" solves with 11 moves to F2L-1, or with 1LLL.

Thing is, no method has been explored as deep as cfop, no other method has more extension, subsets, tricks, etc.
 

ProStar

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2019
Messages
6,253
Location
An uncolonized sector of the planet Mars
WCA
2020MAHO01
SS Competition Results
How about I do CFOP and @Cubingcubecuber does HK?

This is to make it as fair as possible; CCC averages 12 with HK and I average 15-16 with CFOP. That way they can't complain it's since you're so much better at cubing.

I will soon, gotta eat lunch

Ok. We will use Owen's scramble to both do an example solve. Also you can use HKOLL and HKPLL if you want since that's what pure HK is
 

Owen Morrison

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2019
Messages
1,953
Location
Tennessee
WCA
2017MORR06
YouTube
Visit Channel
This is to make it as fair as possible; CCC averages 12 with HK and I average 15-16 with CFOP. That way they can't complain it's since you're so much better at cubing.



Ok. Just pick the first scramble from whatever timer and post it here. Also you can use HKOLL and HKPLL if you want since that's what pure HK is
I think it should be me and @Cubingcubecuber because the time difference is much less. Although it wouldn't make a lot of difference because your solves are usually pretty efficient.
 
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
1,177
Location
a Pokedex or somewhere near you.
Technically you can do that with any method, the question is if that's really true to the method itself and to what a speedsolver does in a solve.

You can say, for example, that 1LLL is possible, and XXCross is doable in every solve.

It has happened, there has been official "cfop" solves with 11 moves to F2L-1, or with 1LLL.

Thing is, no method has been explored as deep as cfop, no other method has more extension, subsets, tricks, etc.
If only the same thing was done to HK, more people researching HK, we already beat CFOP then. that's why we need more people using HK. Join the pineappleution.
 
Joined
Jun 20, 2019
Messages
731
Location
Germany
WCA
2019HENK01
Ok sorry I'll admit I can't get sub-50 with the COLL L5E variant in 10 minutes but with regular HKOLL and HKPLL you can get to sub 50 and even sub 40 in 10 minutes. that doesn't mean the average movecount of CFOP is better than regular HK. you're basically putting me in so much disadvantages, can't use regular HK, can't do it in more than ten minute and I'm using a beginner HK variant which is equivalent to CFOP 3LLL which is inefficient.
then in HK, you could also use tricks to lower that average movecount am I right? in my solve I don't do any tricks and I averaged around 49-high 50s with HK.
wait what?
 

ProStar

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2019
Messages
6,253
Location
An uncolonized sector of the planet Mars
WCA
2020MAHO01
SS Competition Results
Top