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[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

mDiPalma

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Jul 12, 2011
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oh, good idea, i will also record my movecount :) what would you consider a good movecount for eol+f2l?
any sub-35 average for eoline and f2l should be great. but the primary advantage of zz over cfop+petrus+trifran+the_rest is ergonomics and simplified look ahead to foster high tps.

that means, during a speedsolve, i'd prefer triple-sexy over more efficient inserts.
 

Petro Leum

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any sub-35 average for eoline and f2l should be great. but the primary advantage of zz over cfop+petrus+trifran+the_rest is ergonomics and simplified look ahead to foster high tps.

that means, during a speedsolve, i'd prefer triple-sexy over more efficient inserts.
i try to truly block build and leave all the cfop **** behind - i can often avoid those slot cases pretty well. the optimum would be a low blockbuilding move count with high tps.

however im struggling to reduce my eol movecount, i dont see how i can do eo and line simultaneously and save moves- i can plan the whole eoline in inspection time, but i still do eo first and then place the line edges
 

mDiPalma

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i dont see how i can do eo and line simultaneously and save moves- i can plan the whole eoline in inspection time, but i still do eo first and then place the line edges
ya me too. 95% of the time my eoline ends in a D move. just make sure your line edges are on opposite sides of the cube after the EO step. that's what a small kitten told me to do a while back.
 

Pyjam

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Nice movecount with phasing. Are you learning/have you learned ZZLL?
Nick Vu has calculated that advanced phasing only add 1.1 move in average.
I do advanced phasing sometimes, basic phasing often, and no phasing at all sometimes.
 

porkynator

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Seems like it was a nice idea :)
Session of the day:

EOL:
number of times: 50/50
best time: 4.00
worst time: 11.00
best avg5: 5.33 (σ = 0.58)
best avg12: 6.10 (σ = 0.99)
session avg: 7.36 (σ = 1.24)

F2L+EOL:
number of times: 50/50
best time: 21.00
worst time: 39.00
best avg5: 26.67 (σ = 1.15)
best avg12: 28.90 (σ = 3.70)
session avg: 32.48 (σ = 3.51)

Well, my EOLine turned out to be better than I expected.
 

porkynator

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Good news everyone!

Some statistics* about ZZ-Rainbow**

EOL: ~7.68
Isolate: ~2.84
Left*** Block: ~12.88
CP: ~3.80
Right*** Block: ~14.20
Total: ~41.40

*Based on the first 25 slow solves I did with this method, 100% heuristic

** Proposed by mDiPalma about 3 hours ago, steps are:
1) EOLine
2) Place 2 DR corners in DFR/DRB while isolating the left block pieces to U and L face (I think that with some practice it will be possible to include part of this step in the EOLine solve)
3) Solve left block (mDiPalma proposed it < R, U > after a z rotation, I do < L, U >)
4) Permute corners (based on my post of some pages ago in this thread)
5) Right block
6) 2GLL

***As I was doing slow solves, sometimes I isolated DL corners and built right block first. This affects positively movecount, negatively look ahead.

Comment on the method:
-COOL
-Ergonomic
-1LLL
-It's one hell of a method. I think it will require A LOT of practise to be fast.
 

mDiPalma

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lol i did 50 solves with ZZ-Rainbow
i don't know 2gll, so i used 2gen coll and epll (all RU edge perms)

44.47, 38.82, 41.03, 28.98, 27.88, 48.39, 30.38, 28.86, 32.51, 21.87, 25.10, 28.79, 35.07, 44.51, 30.14, 37.13, 36.15, 40.45, 36.80, 34.55, 28.68, 28.82, 38.02, 28.19, 28.66, 38.54, 28.85, 33.98, 42.00, 31.72, 28.83, 36.29, 28.54, 41.24, 35.11, 29.88, 29.74, 33.51, 30.38, 37.71, 29.45, 26.32, 38.29, 30.89, 38.77, 34.33, 37.42, 23.26, 34.09, 23.42

best avg5: 27.58
best avg12: 31.22
best avg50: 33.26

that's around 10 seconds of turning and 20 seconds of thinking per solve

here's a sample of a funny solve (video is mirrored):


i actually think this variant has some potential, if you can isolate and determine corner permutations quickly

what do you guys think?
 
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Petro Leum

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i stil lthink its not really practical; all the nice recognition and lookahead is gone, and the good ergonomics are not that big of an advantage for 2h.

it MIGHT have potential for onehanded, because 2GLL just owns and doing the blocks separately can occasionally save to z rotations.

besides that, its lots of fun to use :)

edit: i dont really know if i understood it correctly. do i have to place the DR corners in their correct positions or just anywhere on DR? trying to find porkynators post...

edit now i got it :) i once had the same idea for CP, but i gave up on listing the cases for FRD and DRB swapped, just thought it was useless. Time to explore this more deeply :p

i average around 35 seconds with it, and i must say for me placing corners one and 1 and 2 on R face while sorting the L face pieces out is reeeaaally hard for me and takes a really many moves... any tips on that?
 
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porkynator

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i average around 35 seconds with it, and i must say for me placing corners one and 1 and 2 on R face while sorting the L face pieces out is reeeaaally hard for me and takes a really many moves... any tips on that?
Ehm... no, I never did a speedsolve with that. But as I said, predicting something/tracing a few pieces during EOLine might be an idea.
 

Petro Leum

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the problem is, you kinda made cp "two-look", but the recognition is still terrible... i already track the Corners 1+2 during EOLine and try to sort out as many L Edges using the orienting F or B moves during EOLine as i can - then i get stuck on finding the start for LHB after placing the Corners... plus the fact that the "half correct" placement of the two Corners in D allows the U corners to have any possible Orientation and therefore makes the use of CLL Patterns impossible... all in all i think the missing link is not really speedsolveable :/ but if ones comes up with an easy recognition method, it would be like the holy grail for OH cubing :p
 

Petro Leum

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when did you start using ZZ? your inspection + EOline is already pretty good! you need to work on your Blockbuilding more then on the Eoline in my opinion.


anyway one tip for eoline: use as much time as you need. it really doesnt help you to force a fast inpection when you then have to lookahead for the line edges or even parts of the EO during the solve. you will not need this later, so rather preinspect 30 seconds and then be able to lookahead F2L while doing EOL.
 

MostEd

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when did you start using ZZ? your inspection + EOline is already pretty good! you need to work on your Blockbuilding more then on the Eoline in my opinion.


anyway one tip for eoline: use as much time as you need. it really doesnt help you to force a fast inpection when you then have to lookahead for the line edges or even parts of the EO during the solve. you will not need this later, so rather preinspect 30 seconds and then be able to lookahead F2L while doing EOL.
About a year ago i first figured out EO, then practiced it some times, nothing major, I also do sub20 with roux and cfop,
 

Athefre

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ZZF2L move count:

number of times: 50/50
best time: 20.00
worst time: 37.00

best avg5: 24.33 (σ = 2.89)

best avg12: 25.60(σ = 2.22)

session avg: 27.89 (σ = 2.76)
session mean: 27.92

I'm not a ZZ user, but I've practiced it a bit in the past so I thought I would try. Non-matching blocks :)
 
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