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[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

aznanimedude

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Feb 23, 2012
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666
Yeah I don't feel it in me to think hard enough about how to incorporate a 2x2 block into my eoline step but I'm getting the feel kinda of how to do it with a pair already made
 

Athefre

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For those that fear the 12 misoriented edge cases, here is something nice to avoid the long and awkward F B setup.

F U R D B L' F

Understand it and you can use variations to help with placing the line.
 

mDiPalma

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why has nobody tried eoline + zzf2l-1 + insert last pair and permute edges (like better phasing) + l4c ?

i don't know how ergonomic l4c is, but optimal 11.73 HTM for LL seems totally boss imo. thats less moves and less algs than zbll (not counting the edge perm part).

take this scramble: B2 L' D2 F2 D2 U' L B' U D' R U2 R U B2 U' R' F2 U' B U B2 D' F' U
x' (Phil's "angle of execution")
M' (U' D) F D' R' F2 U2 L' D2 L U' L' U R' (xxxeoline 14)
U2 R' U' R (last pair and edge permutation 4) <lucky i suppose
F' L' B' U2 B U' B' U2 B2 L' B' L2 F (l4c 13)
d2 (auf 1)
=32 stm or 34 htm

lol whatever. maybe for the hard edge-perm + pair insert cases one could just COLL it out.
 

Godmil

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why has nobody tried eoline + zzf2l-1 + insert last pair and permute edges (like better phasing) + l4c ?
Hmm, could be viable, but L4C isn't a nice step (and 84 algs isn't the smallest set ever). I wonder what the average move count of LS+EP would be, in that example you're pretty much getting a skip (also a 14 move triple X-Cross Eoline is rather exceptional - so that total move count is a little deceptive). I wouldn't be surprised if COLL/EPLL or OCLL/PLL actually had lower move counts ( and less algs). So at best you're saving part of an F2L insert... which may be quite good.... it would be interesting to see the stats (move counts etc).
 

mDiPalma

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Jul 12, 2011
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i was thinking u build a pair, put it at like LUF+UF, and then recog the edge perm...like wv only approximately a zillion times harder
so dude i totally brute forced this
put ur cube in white green cause like thats the only cool orientation and cause i use colors to identify teh pieces
like do R U R' and imagine the edges at UL UB UR and FR can squiggle all around
kk so im gonna number them pl0x: wg=0 wo=1 wb=2 wr=3
i guess like 1230 is the same thing as 2301 and 3012 cause of like aufs and that makes this really hard, so dont hurt me
now so like for simplicity im gonna assume that UL is always wg, but like it can be aufed after so ya
so going around from where wb should be to where wr should be to where gr should be, ill do the numbers
there are like 6 combos or something kk?

123 = ya i have no idea
132 = R U' R'
213 = (R U R' U') R U' R'
231 = [U'] R' U2 R U R U' R2 U2 R
312 = [U'] R' U2 R U R' U R2 U2 R'
321 = R U2 R'

there are obv faster 3 gen ones, but 2 gen is cooler, and im stupid without a computer
ya well dont bother with helping me, i thought this would be better. i'm only gonna post my bad algs for the good of the forum search function.

ending note: coll+epll and oll+pll >> all
 

Pyjam

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Oct 8, 2010
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La Baule, France
Last pair insertion + permutation of edges

Last pair insertion + permutation of edges

Here are the basic cases.
It's in french but easy to understand.

F is FU
R is RU
@ is FR
// means opposite
Case 1 : @ // R = FR opposite to RU
Case 2 : F // R = FU opposite to RU
Case 3 : @ // F = FR opposite to FU

So 1R = FR opposite to RU, and @ must go to R
etc.

Case 2B for separate pair is a fine piece of caca.


UPDATE : Now for the back slot

@ = BR
 

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mDiPalma

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Jul 12, 2011
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that's 6.83 moves average (not counting aufs)
minus the 3 moves you'd already need to insert the pair in the first place
giving just a 3.83 move investment to reduce the cube to 84 possible cases from 493 cases, solvable in 11.73 htm optimized moves.

thats not bad.
 

Matt S

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Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
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One-look LS+OCLL is combining edge placement (simple ELS) with CLS. CLS alone has 104 algorithms. You'd be better off doing LS + ZBLL.
 

porkynator

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why has nobody tried eoline + zzf2l-1 + insert last pair and permute edges (like better phasing) + l4c ?

i don't know how ergonomic l4c is, but optimal 11.73 HTM for LL seems totally boss imo. thats less moves and less algs than zbll (not counting the edge perm part).

take this scramble: B2 L' D2 F2 D2 U' L B' U D' R U2 R U B2 U' R' F2 U' B U B2 D' F' U
x' (Phil's "angle of execution")
M' (U' D) F D' R' F2 U2 L' D2 L U' L' U R' (xxxeoline 14)
U2 R' U' R (last pair and edge permutation 4) <lucky i suppose
F' L' B' U2 B U' B' U2 B2 L' B' L2 F (l4c 13)
d2 (auf 1)
=32 stm or 34 htm

lol whatever. maybe for the hard edge-perm + pair insert cases one could just COLL it out.
Probably you already know, but you can try doing something similar intuitively like in Heise Method (Step 4). Btw, if you want to use this for speedsolving you'd better ignore my message, 5 edges + 2 corners (or 1 corner in your case) it's a pain for speedsolve (I tried it) and even for FMC it requires a lot of practise. Like one jillion solves or so.
 

Robert-Y

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ZBLL has 493 cases (including PLL)...

What might be an okay idea is to learn certain LS+OCLL subsets, then when you run into a last slot case in which you do not know how to solve this last slot case + OLL, you simply reduce to another LS case like WV for example.

I was thinking of placing the LS edge and LS corner together in the top layer, then doing LS+OCLL. I think reduction to these LS cases will require at most 4 moves. This way, there would be (27*6 = 162 cases) + (21 for PLL) =
193 algorithms in total.

Here are some examples of what I mean if it's not clear enough:

Scramble: F2 D' L2 D F2 R2 U R2 F R' D B2 D B' D2 F' R F R U R' U' F'
LS redux: U R U R'
LS+OCLL: U R2 D R' U R D' R' U2 R'
PLL

Scramble: R D2 F2 U2 R2 B2 U2 L' F2 U2 R' U R' U L' U2
LS redux: skip
LS+OCLL: U2 R U2 R' U' R U R'
PLL

Scramble: U R B L U L2 B' L U2 B2 R B2 R' U2 R' U2 F2 L F L' F
LS redux: U R U R'
LS+OCLL: L U' R2 D R' U R D' R2 L'
PLL

Scramble: F' U2 R2 F' R2 F' U2 R2 F2 U R2 D' F2 D F2 U F' U' F
LS redux: R U' R'
LS+OCLL: U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R2 U2 R'
PLL

Scramble: R2 U2 R' U2 R' F2 L2 R2 U2 F' L F U2 L2 R2 F U' F R B U B' R'
LS redux: R U' R'
LS+OCLL: U2 F' U L' U' L U L' U' L U' F
PLL

Hmm... I'm not sure if people will save that much time let alone moves after typing out these examples :p
 

Matt S

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Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
84
ZBLL has 493 cases (including PLL)...
That was my point. Although I think there would be somewhat fewer cases in LS+OCLL, there would still be several hundred, and the pay-off would be much, much lower than ZBLL.

Hmm... I'm not sure if people will save that much time let alone moves after typing out these examples :p
Yep.

IMO, full last-slot variations are annoying with ZZ, because you have to learn mirrors (or restrict yourself to always leaving one of either the RF/LB or LF/RB slots last, which is a major limitation). That's why I think that CLS and CPLS are the only viable LS-type variations. Requiring the edge to be solved makes edge orientation independent of y rotations and even allows you to use D moves instead of rotations to position the open corner in your preferred position.
 

aznanimedude

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Joined
Feb 23, 2012
Messages
666
Kind of off-topic, but I've learned the H and almost all of the Pi COLL cases. Is it really worth it to learn any of the rest?
the rest weren't so bad, the L cases were a bit tricky imo for me, still "kinda" iffy in recognition for those, if only because they were the last ones i learned (haven't learned teh Sune + A-Sunes yet, but i just might because i'm going to learn ZZLLs sooooooon)

H was easy because there's only 4 lol
 
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