# [Help Thread]ZZ and ZB Discussion

#### koreancuber

##### Member
First, I'd like to credit Cyrus C. (for the Petrus Home thread idea) and Innocence (lol...). Just a thread for those few ZZ/ZB members out there.
Here's a list of cubers that use ZZ/ZB method as their main method that I KNOW of:

Sir E Brum
4Chan
koreancuber
blah (not sure)
Cride5
ThatGuy
Mustard
Kirjava (for lulz, lol)
Innocence
ostracod
vcuber13
yurivish
a small kitten
James
iasimp1997
nitay6669
[abc]toshiro
eastamazonantidote
Stachuk1992
jordan12
Anonymous
Escher
Matthew

Please help me add more! (just post on this thread if you know any cuber that uses the ZZ/ZB method as their main)

Here's some great info from Cride5! Thanks!

I guess its probably a good idea to include links to other past ZZ threads:

ZBLL algorithms from eastamazonantidote!

Alrightie then- take 2. Here you guys go (should work better now):

ZZLL Algorithms.doc

ZZLL Algorithms.odt

ZZLL Algorithms.pdf

I'm almost positive I missed some, so don't be afraid to let me know. I just took the cases from HERE and found the corresponding case in my ZBLL sheet. However, I only count 155 algorithms in this document when there should be 167 (right?) so something isn't there. Just let me know and I'll get it fixed.

ZZF2L tips from Conrad (Cride5)!
(more info here and here)

Tips for ZZF2L Lookahead:

* Partially hidden edges - learn to identify them through elimination
* Partially hidden corners - ensure you can 'see' 6/8 corners at all times. See: Coracle
* EOLine-F2L transition - basically concentrate on F2L during EOLine - don't 'check' your line edges
* Flexibility - On 1x2x2 blocks be willing to use either a D or and E-slice edge
* No looking at B/D - rotations are bad, use R/L moves to find pieces if you need to

ZZF2L execution tips from Matt S!

I have a couple ZZF2L execution tips that I think are worth sharing (especially for others coming from a CFOP background):

1) Discover and learn to recognize nice patterns for forming 1x2x2 blocks. When you first start there will be times when you're just trying to make a corner edge pair and you'll make a happy discovery that the second edge "magically" made its way to the right spot. When this happens, stop, undo your moves, and take a look at the three piece pattern that caused this happy accident. Now you'll be able to recognize and eventually work to form these nice three piece patterns, which are often much easier and faster than forming the pair and then positioning the second edge in sequence.

One position that I've come to love early in the F2L is the "broken corner" position. This is the position where the D-sticker of the corner faces up and the side sticker matches the adjacent edge (the one that every new CFOPer hates until he learns an alg for it). You're probably familiar with the R2 U2 R' U' R U' R alg used to solve it. It's extremely useful to know the position after the initial R2 U2 (perform R' U R' U R on a solved cube), because it's very easy to recognize get directly into this position early in the F2L. Then it's just five moves to go from a "bad" situation (mis-formed pair + edge on wrong side) to a solved and positioned 1x2x2 block.

2) Similar to #1, also backtrack when you have a case where making the pair puts the second edge in an especially bad spot, so you can recognize and avoid this. Sometimes you'll find that doing just one move before forming the pair will turn a bad situation into a very nice one.

3) Use of free "slots" is important in CFOP, but it's even more important in ZZ because a) it gets back some of the lost flexibility from having F and B fixed, and b) early on you have a free slice rather than just a slot, so it's even more "free".

3) Learn and become comfortable with the block breaking algs that you didn't really need in CFOP because of the ability to use F and B. This is probably obvious, but I went weeks using cludgy tricks to avoid block breaking, which wasn't worth it.

something Chris Tran brought up

ELLC, only 27 algs!

ZZF2L 'Open Slotting' Algorithms by Conrad! (Cride5)

When solving ZZF2L I find myself inserting C+E pairs into 'open' slots almost as often as closed ones. Although it can improve efficiency, the main reason I do it is for lookahead. Where an initial 1x2x2 belongs in a front slot, I normally place it into the back to fill up the hidden edge positions (BL and BR).

Although I've been doing this for quite a while, I've never actually looked at the best algs for solving into an open slot. While some of the cases are best solved by closing the slot and executing the normal alg, many cases can be more efficiently solved by an alg optimised for this situation.

All cases are presented below for completeness, however some of them can probably be ignored. Some are based on just closing the slot, while others can be easily worked out through intuition.

Basic Cases

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=UL'URU'L[/cube]
(U) L' U R U' L . . (5f)
(U) R U2 R' U' R . . (5f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=UR'ULU'R2UL'[/cube]
(U) R' U L U' R2 U L' . . (7f)
(U) R2 D R' U2 R D' R' . . (7f)
(U') R U2 R' U' R U R' U' R . . (9f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=R2U2R2U'R2U'R'[/cube]
R2 U2 R2 U' R2 U' R' . . (7f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RUR'U'RU'R'U'R[/cube]
R U R' U' R U' R' U' R . . (9f)
R U2 R' U R U R' U' R . . (9f)
R B2 U L U' L' B2 . . (7f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=U'RU2R'URU'R'UR[/cube]
(U') R U2 R' U R U' R' U R . . (9f)
(U) R' U2 R2 U R2 U R2 . . (7f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RUR'U2RU2R'UR[/cube]
(U') R U' R' U R U' R' U R . . (9f)
R U R' U2 R U2 R' U R . . (9f)
R B2 U2 R B2 R' U2 B2 . . (8f)

Corner Trapped

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RU2R'UR[/cube]
R U2 R' U R . . (5f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RU'R'U'R[/cube]
R U' R' U' R . . (5f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RUR'U'RU'R'UR[/cube]
R U L' U R' U' L R . . (8f)
L R U' R' U L' U R . . (8f)
R U R' U' R U' R' U R . . (9f)

Edge Trapped

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RUR'U'R[/cube]
R U R' U' R . .(5f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RU'R'UR[/cube]
R U' R' U R . . (5f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RUR'URU'R'U'R[/cube]
R U R' U R U' R' U' R . . (9f)
(U') L' U2 L F2 R' F2 R2 . . (7f)
(U') L' U2 R U2 R' U2 L R . . (8f)

Both Trapped

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=R'U2R'URU'RU2R2[/cube]
R' U2 R' U R U' R U2 R2 . . (9f)
R2 U2 R U' R U R' U2 R' . . (9f)
F2 U' F2 R' D R' D' R' . . (8f)
R' D' R' D R' B2 U' B2 . . (8f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RU'RU2R2U'R2U'R'[/cube]
R U' R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R' . . (9f)
R' U' R2 U' R2 U2 R U' R . . (9f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RUR2U2RUR'UR2[/cube]
R U R2 U2 R U R' U R2 . . (9f)
R2 U R' U R U2 R2 U R . . (9f)

Connected Cases

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RU'R'U'L'URU'L[/cube]
R U' R' U' L' U R U' L . . (9f)
R U R' U2 R U' R' U' R . . (9f)
F R B R' F' R B' . . (7f)
F' R B R' F R B' . . (7f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=U'RUR'U'RUR'U'R[/cube]
(U') R U R' U' R U R' U' R . . (9f)
R' U' R2 U' R2 U2 R2 . . (7f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=RU'R'U2RU'R'UR[/cube]
R U' R' U2 R U' R' U R . . (9f)
(U) R' U' R U' R' U2 R2 . . (7f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=UR'U2RUR'UR2[/cube]
(U) R' U2 R U R' U R2 . . (7f)

[cube]visualcube.php?fmt=gif&stage=f2l&size=70&case=U2RUR'U2RUR'U'R[/cube]
R B2 L U L' U' B2 (7f)
(U) L' U2 L U L' U L R . . (8f)
R U R' U' R U R' U2 R . . (9f)
(U2) R U R' U2 R U R' U' R . . (9f)
... and of course there's always the wiki pages:
[wiki]ZZ[/wiki]
[wiki]ZB[/wiki]
[wiki]ZBLL[/wiki]
[wiki]COLL[/wiki]
[wiki]EPLL[/wiki]

AND SO MANY MORE!

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#### miniGOINGS

##### Member
Musturd.

Also...when did I come up with this idea?

#### Kirjava

##### Colourful
I use ZZ for the lulz.

#### Cride5

##### Premium Member
Great idea for a thread

Here's my question... what's the average move count of the EOLine?
Optimal average is ~6.127 moves.

I find achieving a near-optimal EOLine isn't too hard. Optimal EO is easy, and if you're paying attention to your line edges then the line part is rarely more than 3 moves.

EDIT: I guess its probably a good idea to include links to other past ZZ threads:

... and of course there's always the wiki pages:
http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/ZZ
http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/ZB
http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/ZBLL

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#### koreancuber

##### Member
Great idea for a thread

Here's my question... what's the average move count of the EOLine?
~6.127 moves.

I find achieving a near-optimal EOLine isn't too hard. Optimal EO is easy, and if you're paying attention to your line edges then the line part is rarely more than 3 moves.
I get the EO line, and I can get it during the 15 sec inspection time, but I can't seem to get the line. Any good times on practicing it?

#### miniGOINGS

##### Member
I get the EO line, and I can get it during the 15 sec inspection time, but I can't seem to get the line. Any good times on practicing it?
Track/trace the pieces. It comes with practice, and time.

#### Cyrus C.

##### Member
Is there anyone learning ZB who uses Petrus?

#### 4Chan

##### Premium Member
I like to think that people who go to learn ZB will give up around the 300 algorithm mark.

I like to think to myself that it's a fad.

Buuuuut, it would be nice to be proven wrong.

EDIT: I'll offer help/advice/algorithms to anyone who posts in this thread though.
I'm not too good with the ZZ part, but the LL part, I have a bit of experience.

#### Innocence

##### Member
Hey, you can put me down on the list I think. Lol, I am trying to switch, believe it or not, just look at my horrible Fridrich times in the Sub-20 race.

#### 4Chan

##### Premium Member
I thought it was 490 something, lol.
I don't even know the exact number myself!
HahahaHaHahaHahahA xD

#### Kirjava

##### Colourful
After enough time with ZZ, do you guys find you can always detect bad edges in <10sec?

I can.

#### Cride5

##### Premium Member
I get the EO line, and I can get it during the 15 sec inspection time, but I can't seem to get the line. Any good times on practicing it?
Track/trace the pieces. It comes with practice, and time.
I think that pretty much sums it up. Remember though, EOLine is hard. It will take time to master. Initially, I would just concentrate on EO + Line, being sure to concentrate on achieving optimal EO, and knowing alternative ways to solve the same case.

For full EOLine I don't necessarily concentrate on optimallity, but instead there are two other important factors:
(1) Lookahead ... I find EOLine to F2L transition is pretty hard, because there's an instinct to check to make sure the line is correct. Learn to just ignore the line pieces and trust they will be solved. I also find a great way to improve lookahead into F2L is to plan EOLine so that the final line placement ends in a D turn. Try to avoid U's and F2/B2 in the final moves as far as possible.
(2) Ease of tracking ... Quite a lot of the time you can make tracking the line edges a lot easier by choosing an EOLine which minimises movement of the line edges. If you can keep one edge stationary during EO, for example, its a lot easier to track where the edges will end up.

#### vcuber13

##### Member
Speedsolving Wiki said:
ZBLL indeed sounds like a very useful step to learn, but the main reason that it is not in wide use is that it involves a massive 177 algorithms (counting inverses and mirrors are the same), or a total of 493 cases (including PLL). Only a handful of people have ever learned this step in its entirety.
So its 493.

#### Cride5

##### Premium Member
After enough time with ZZ, do you guys find you can always detect bad edges in <10sec?
Easily yeah! It takes more like about 5-sec to find the bad edges. Its planning the line which takes time for me, it involves thinking about other possible ways to solve EO to get a good Line.

In the UK open last year I was just doing EO+Line and I think I only heard the 12-sec call once.

#### Kirjava

##### Colourful
I never realised that you were from the UK.

I obviously havn't had enough practise. Once I can detect bad edges I can easily track the EOline and solve it after fixing edges, but I can't yet tell if an edge is bad just by looking at it yet (If you get what I mean). I still can't see the entire Roux block everytime I inspect either, so maybe my inspection just sucks.

I guess being nonCN helps somewhat for ZZ. At least at first.

#### miniGOINGS

##### Member
I guess being nonCN helps somewhat for ZZ. At least at first.
...I've never known of anyone not being colour neutral for ZZ.

#### 4Chan

##### Premium Member
Rowan can change faces, and use different colours to "solve" bad edges.

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