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[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

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I switched from the first one to the second one when Drew came out with The Best PLLs and recently thought about using both to avoid a pre-AUF. At the moment, I haven't switched [E: to both of them] because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I think it would be a little bit confusing to try and use both just because my mind will say "do Zperm" and then my hands will be like "wait, which one?"

I may experiment with it. I think you should try it, at least.
 
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I solve eocross, which, despite the bad press from earlier ZZ solvers, is now generally considered the best way. Eo3/4cross is also pretty good. So I'd say do that and then solve pairs in any order.
Why is eocross now considered the best way? And why is eoline still used for oh? I'm learning ZZ and it's a bit confusing because a lot of tutorials are from years ago when eocross was frowned upon.
 
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Why is eocross now considered the best way? And why is eoline still used for oh? I'm learning ZZ and it's a bit confusing because a lot of tutorials are from years ago when eocross was frowned upon.
Line (for 2H) has worse TPS and lookahead than Cross. Line is a bit more efficient, but not enough to make up for it's poor TPS and lookahead. For OH, lookahead is easier and TPS is more limited, making Line a bit better.

This is a simplified way to put it.
 
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Line (for 2H) has worse TPS and lookahead than Cross. Line is a bit more efficient, but not enough to make up for it's poor TPS and lookahead. For OH, lookahead is easier and TPS is more limited, making Line a bit better.

This is a simplified way to put it.
So, is this general consensus nowadays?
How does that compare to roux? Is roux much more efficient i.e is zz eoline not efficient enough to make up for the worse lookahead?
That being said, is eocross even worth it overall? I always loved the idea of eocross, but I was under the impression that it would be better to either have eoline+zzf2l, or just do normal cross cfop. But I wasn't active at all for a few years up until a couple days ago. I have tried switching to ZZ before but the f2l eventually made me stop.
 
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So, is this general consensus nowadays?
How does that compare to roux? Is roux much more efficient i.e is zz eoline not efficient enough to make up for the worse lookahead?
Yes, this is the general consensus.
Roux's efficiency makes up for it's TPS and lookahead. EOLine doesn't save enough moves to justify using it.


That being said, is eocross even worth it overall? I always loved the idea of eocross, but I was under the impression that it would be better to either have eoline+zzf2l, or just do normal cross cfop.
EOCross is worth it for 2H, but not as much for OH. It has easy lookahead because of few blind spots, EO being done, and F2L automation. Line is definitely worth it for OH, though.

Definitely give EOCross a shot. It's harder to plan, but it's definitely possible. The downfall of EOCross is the transition to F2L, but that isn't too bad once you're able to plan the entire EOCross.
 
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To put it less simply: the ergonomics massively outweigh the extra ~6 moves per solve. You can also do keyhole tricks a lot more easily and lookahead is generally easier too due to fewer blindspots. You can probably get higher tps than with CFOP (as RUL and rotationless and very few regrips, also very automatic) and it is more efficient than CFOP, but less efficient thanRoux or traditional ZZ, but as Wombat said, the tps outweighs the drawbacks of being less efficient. In comparison to Roux, it is about 6 moves less efficient (as EOLine w. ZBLL is equal to Roux), but you can get a higher tps as you have better ergonomics and lookahead, which I think pretty much cancel each other out, but with line, you can't reach the tps of Roux, so that makes it automatically worse. And with the general consensus, I do EOCross most of the time, unless I can see good blocks, then I will do blocks maybe 1/25 solves. Those few times when blocks are better it is definitely worth it to do line, but majority, EOCross. Also, the three fastest ZZ solvers use EOCross, so that's something.
 
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And now I'm torn once again lol. I just started to solve with cfop on blue cross, hoping to be able to become color neutral eventually, because I just really like the concept.
On the other hand, eocross is awesome, the following f2l is such a pleasure. Especially since, at least for now, I only solve with blue in front. it's so nice to instantly know where any given pair belongs, which is something that causes me to struggle in cfop sometimes, not allowing me to concentrate on the next pair. With eocross and knowing the colors, you can see a corner+edge and automatically know how to insert it into which slot. And I'm sure over time it wouldnt be too hard to switch up F colors for better start into the solve.
Are there any recent-ish guides on eocross, or example solves to look into?
 
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If you're willing to learn full ZBLL, EOCross is worth it. Here are some examples solves by yours truly.
Nice video thx!

I love the idea of using full ZBLL or at least partial ZBLL, even just for the heck of it, but I'm not sure that's feasable. It's not like I have barely any time for cubing but ofc it's less than what I would have had back when I went to school. Do you use full ZBLL? Besides learning so many algs and the tough recognition, what scares me the most is actually maintaining it. With so many cases, it seems almost impossible to be able to know the whole set, given that any given case could just almost never show up. Seems like to actually make use of it, one would have to regularily drill the whole set in order to not forget most of it.
 
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I use all of T and all of U and a third of Pi and L respectively. After exams, the aim is to increase that. With. maitinance, as long as you keep it up initially (so drill the newer ones), you should be fine. Yeah, you will probably forget one or two every so often, but it should be alright. I do agree, it is a big time commitment.
 
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I don't know if you can say that EOCross is generally accepted as the best. I tried it out for a hundred solves (I use Roux and average ~20 seconds; I've been getting ~25 with ZZ) and I'm not sure I prefer it over EOLine. It would probably help if my inspection skills were better, but I find myself slowing a lot to get the cross done. After that though, F2L is undeniably fast. I do remember seeing some objective evidence based on optimal movecounts in favor of EOCross by @mDiPalma (I think), so I'd look for that and take it into account.
 
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So I am going to learn full ZB but I have multiple questions.
1) Should I start learning
A. When I get a successful blind solve
B. When I finish memorizing full oll
C. All of the above.
2) Where can I find my algs?
3) memorization tips.
4) should I learn other alg sets before I learn ZB?
If you have any general tips as well please send. Thanks!
 
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I have no experience with ZBLL, so I can't help much. I think you should learn Full OLL first, also ZBLL is a pre-edge oriented One Look, so you need to be able to brute force EO during F2L. (If you use CFOP). Plus, I am not sure if it is worth it. Maintaining 493 algs in your memory is a huge task. Or are you just learning some algs?
Plus, just go to algdb.net and go to the ZBLL sections.
COLL is useful as well.

For memorization, if you are doing full ZB, work your way through each subset, and learn algs, a few each day, so they think in. Remember to keep practising what you have learnt (although it'll get progressively harder) so it stays in your memory.


I changed my poll vote since things like PLL are technically part of ZBLL, if you have an OLL skip.
 
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1) After OLL. What does ZB have to do with BLD?
2) here is a good list for ZBLL (doesn't have sune/antisune though)
3) look at how the F2L pairs move around the cube, break down into triggers, etc. Make sure you're comfortable with recognition, and practice the algs you've learned a lot. Take a break after each set of 72 (each OLL) and spend the time practicing what you know and solidifying it before moving on to the next OLL.
4) COLL so you know how to recognize the corners, and it's a pretty good stepping-stone overall. Plus then you'll already know some ZBLL's!

I assume you mean ZBLL and not full ZB, as ZBLS probably isn't worth the effort.
 
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I have no experience with ZBLL, so I can't help much. I think you should learn Full OLL first, also ZBLL is a pre-edge oriented One Look, so you need to be able to brute force EO during F2L. (If you use CFOP). Plus, I am not sure if it is worth it. Maintaining 493 algs in your memory is a huge task. Or are you just learninig some algs?
Plus, just go to algdb.net and go to the ZBLL sections.
So your pre edge oriented comment there is something called ZBLS which is part of full zb. Look it up cuz it’s hard to explain
 
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1) After OLL. What does ZB have to do with BLD?
2) here is a good list for ZBLL (doesn't have sune/antisune though)
3) look at how the F2L pairs move around the cube, break down into triggers, etc. Make sure you're comfortable with recognition, and practice the algs you've learned a lot. Take a break after each set of 72 (each OLL) and spend the time practicing what you know and solidifying it before moving on to the next OLL.
4) COLL so you know how to recognize the corners, and it's a pretty good stepping-stone overall. Plus then you'll already know some ZBLL's!

I assume you mean ZBLL and not full ZB, as ZBLS probably isn't worth the effort.
I may not learn ZBLS. So you saying find out how to orient the edges intuitively and not learn ZBLS?
 
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