[Help Thread] OLL and PLL Discussion

[mark49152]

Try to recognize by features on the sides of the top layer, like complete sides, 2-blocks and headlights. You shouldn't have to align the top layer with the F2L and think about which pieces are correct and which need to cycle/swap.

Edit: ninja'd by much better explanation

 

[ChickenWrap]

For the G perms, at least, you can look at the "headlights" and the 2-piece bar, which will distinguish each of the 4 G perms from the others. They really aren't that bad...I have memorized which G perm is which, but I still don't know the algs since I suck at memorizing

*Edit: sorry, I didn't read the previous posts!

 

[aboeglin]

Thanks for the answers !

Since the post of TDM I have been doing about 20 solves where I just timed my F2L to see how consistent it is. I have done 20 F2L between 22 and 25 sec, nothing below, nothing above, which means that I could definitely get sub 30 soon if I can manage to learn PLL and improve my F2L a bit further. Anyway, back to the topic. After timing the F2L I quickly ran my 2 look OLL and tried for each case I was facing to find which case it was ( was quite long most of the time since I don't know every alg yet ). And when I eventually found it, tried to make it connect with the description of TDM.

I guess I'll keep doing a few of these while learning 2-3 algs a day, thanks for the good explanation TDM, that's exactly what I was looking for. Now I guess it's only practice and practice.

 

[TDM]

Thanks for the answers !

Since the post of TDM I have been doing about 20 solves where I just timed my F2L to see how consistent it is. I have done 20 F2L between 22 and 25 sec, nothing below, nothing above, which means that I could definitely get sub 30 soon if I can manage to learn PLL and improve my F2L a bit further. Anyway, back to the topic. After timing the F2L I quickly ran my 2 look OLL and tried for each case I was facing to find which case it was ( was quite long most of the time since I don't know every alg yet ). And when I eventually found it, tried to make it connect with the description of TDM.

I guess I'll keep doing a few of these while learning 2-3 algs a day, thanks for the good explanation TDM, that's exactly what I was looking for. Now I guess it's only practice and practice.

Glad I could help. Remember, looking at diagrams is also very important to get to know what the cases look like. The wiki has diagrams of each case, as well as multiple algs for each one. It's a really good place to look at when learning PLL. In addition, algdb.net has a 3D image of each case (although only from one angle), and as many algs that people use. You can see which algs are popular, and therefore usually better.
And if you're going to learn 2-3 algs a day, you may want to learn one letter a day e.g. learn both R perms in a day, or both J perms. It many not be a good idea with G perms though. I found using a completely different alg for each G perm helped, as the most used ones are all very similar. You don't have to do this though, this is just an example of something you could do. If you want them, here are the G perms I use:
Ga: R2 U R' U R' U' R U' R2' [U' D] R' U R [U D']
Gb: F' U' F R2 u R' U R U' R u' R2'
Gc: R2' F2 R U2 R U2' R' F R U R' U' R' F R2
Gd: R2' F' R U R U' R' F' R U2' R' U2 R' F2 R2
But remember: find algs that work well for you. Don't just use what everyone else uses, look around and see what could be useful. Often, it is just what everyone else uses, but not always.
Good luck learning PLL!

 

[aboeglin]

I started with badmephisto algs, I don't use all of them, but most of them seem really good to me. Also the diagrams of the wiki are much nicer yes. They show the colors on the sides which might help for the recognition, thanks a lot !

 

[aboeglin]

I'll finish to learn N perms today and it'll be 6 left ( G perms are part of it ). I'm not fluent in every alg yet, but it'll come with time I suppose. Sometimes I get a little confused between A perm and G perm though, the only way I have found yet is to check if the centers are aligned by moving the U layer. I find it really difficult to find out if the edges are solved without actually placing the edges on their respective faces or at least an opposite color. The problem is that in both G and A perm I have the headlights next to a solved corner.

How long did it take you guys to get comfortable with full PLL ?

 

[TDM]

I'll finish to learn N perms today and it'll be 6 left ( G perms are part of it ). I'm not fluent in every alg yet, but it'll come with time I suppose. Sometimes I get a little confused between A perm and G perm though, the only way I have found yet is to check if the centers are aligned by moving the U layer. I find it really difficult to find out if the edges are solved without actually placing the edges on their respective faces or at least an opposite color. The problem is that in both G and A perm I have the headlights next to a solved corner.

How long did it take you guys to get comfortable with full PLL ?

It takes a while, but with practise a few weeks should easily be enough to get comfortable.
One thing I notice with A perms is that they have a solved 2x2 block, whereas G perms don't. I still fail A perm recog from time to time, but not frequently. The more you use PLL, the less mistakes you'll make and the easier recog will become.
Edit: also, something that can help with G/A perm confusion: you don't always have to turn the U layer (this is also called AUF: adjust U face) to see if the edges are solved. Sometimes with G perms, the two edges you can see will be opposites (i.e. red/orange or blue/green). This never happens with A perms. If they aren't like this, and are adjacent colours, then you could have one solved and one not solved, and opposite where it should go. This is a G perm. If both are solved, it could be either. It's not always an A perm if they're both solved. I could keep listing cases, but you'll find it easier to remember if you find things out for yourself. The more you do yourself, the easier it will be in the future. True, it's not going to be easy now, but later you'll be glad you did it.

 

[NooberCuber]

I'll finish to learn N perms today and it'll be 6 left ( G perms are part of it ). I'm not fluent in every alg yet, but it'll come with time I suppose. Sometimes I get a little confused between A perm and G perm though, the only way I have found yet is to check if the centers are aligned by moving the U layer. I find it really difficult to find out if the edges are solved without actually placing the edges on their respective faces or at least an opposite color. The problem is that in both G and A perm I have the headlights next to a solved corner.

How long did it take you guys to get comfortable with full PLL ?

For the N perms I would suggest
Na
(R U' L U2) (R' U L' R) (U' L U2) (R' U L')
Nb Perm
(L' U R' U2') (L U' R L') (U R' U2') (L U' R)

They're pretty easy to learn and the L' R move and the R L'
help with remembering

As far as G perms go,
A good way to practice them is to learn them in pairs
if you do the Ga perm on a solved cube you'll get the Gb
if you do the Gc perm on a solved cube you'll get the Gd case

It took me 2 weeks to memorize full PLL
I had learned 2 look PLL before which made it easier

 

[TDM]

For the N perms I would suggest
Na
(R U' L U2) (R' U L' R) (U' L U2) (R' U L')
Nb Perm
(L' U R' U2') (L U' R L') (U R' U2') (L U' R)

They're pretty easy to learn.

As far as G perms go, a good way to practice them is to learn them in pairs
if you do the Ga perm on a solved cube you'll get the Gb
if you do the Gc perm on a solved cube you'll get the Gd case

This is all good advice. The N perms are what I first learned, and they're very similar. Although I could tell which one is which because the first move breaks the 1x2 on the front face (I actually learned the front/back mirror, so I remembered that it didn't break it, but for these algs they do break it), another thing you could do for Na is to do R U R' U, then a Jb perm (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U'), then undo the first four moves (U' R U' R'). It uses a PLL you already know without both N perms being too similar. Both N perms are good for learning at first though. My one is faster, even though it is longer, but at first, choose whichever one is easiest to learn. I found it very easy to first learn what was easiest to learn, and then once I could recognise cases easily, I then moved on to faster algs.
So choose whichever one you want, but for now, learning something that's easy to learn is what you should focus on. A slightly slower 1-look PLL won't make much of a difference until you're sub-30 at least.

 

[JaketheSnake]

Hey new here. Found new Z perm: M2 U M' U2 M2 U2 M' U' M2. Any good?

 

[TDM]

Hey new here. Found new Z perm: M2 U M' U2 M2 U2 M' U' M2. Any good?

Welcome! More UK cubers That Z perms looks good... but only good. It's just two U perms, and because they're different U perms it unfortunately has U moves going in both directions, which usually is fine but not for MU algs. I wouldn't use it personally, but it definitely isn't bad.
Btw, if you find new algorithms, this thread is often a good place to post them.

 

[mark49152]

This is all good advice. The N perms are what I first learned, and they're very similar. Although I could tell which one is which because the first move breaks the 1x2 on the front face (I actually learned the front/back mirror, so I remembered that it didn't break it, but for these algs they do break it), another thing you could do for Na is to do R U R' U, then a Jb perm (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U'), then undo the first four moves (U' R U' R'). It uses a PLL you already know without both N perms being too similar. Both N perms are good for learning at first though. My one is faster, even though it is longer, but at first, choose whichever one is easiest to learn. I found it very easy to first learn what was easiest to learn, and then once I could recognise cases easily, I then moved on to faster algs.
So choose whichever one you want, but for now, learning something that's easy to learn is what you should focus on. A slightly slower 1-look PLL won't make much of a difference until you're sub-30 at least.

N perms are among the least likely to occur (1 in 72 solves, each) so I suggest learning them last, as they will have least impact on your times.

G perms are a good candidate for learning early, as they are among the commonest. 1 in 4.5 solves ends in a G perm, and the four of them are easy to learn at the same time as they all share the same patterns.

 

[TDM]

N perms are among the least likely to occur (1 in 72 solves, each) so I suggest learning them last, as they will have least impact on your times.

True. However, he's learning them later on, and as he's already said he's learning them. I was just suggesting an alternative to what was given.

the four of them are easy to learn at the same time as they all share the same patterns.

I actually found this to make learning them harder, because not only were they so similar, but there were very few blocks/headlights etc. to help recognition. I agree with you that they should be learned earlier on though. I didn't learn them until I averaged 18 though, several months after the rest of PLL. My Ga's still suck Luckily I have good Gc/Gd algs.

 

[mark49152]

Yes I guess it does make it harder, in some ways. For a long time I was often doing the wrong alg for the case. Occasionally I still do a G perm and hit the timer then realise oh! there's still a U perm left to do.

 

[TDM]

Yes I guess it does make it harder, in some ways. For a long time I was often doing the wrong alg for the case. Occasionally I still do a G perm and hit the timer then realise oh! there's still a U perm left to do.

Yeah, same. Is it mostly with Gb/Gd for you? It definitely is for me. It's the only way I ever DNF.

 

[mark49152]

Can't remember which are Gb/Gd, but it's the ones where the block is on the right side if the headlights are on the left.

 

[Phillip1847]

One is floating, one is Down on the grounD. if you didn't get that, G(d) is not floating.
For G(d) I use a french G perm that does a right corner swap and some weird thing with the edges. Its (R U R' U') D R2 U' (R U' R' U R') U R2 D'.
Its sexy, D, bring up white, put the 2x3 yellow in front of you, take out the right pair of the 2x3, and replace the one in its place, U put it back, and undo D R2 U'.
Complicated, but I find learning algs by what they do to the colors.

 

[TDM]

Can't remember which are Gb/Gd, but it's the ones where the block is on the right side if the headlights are on the left.

Yep, block and headlights opposite each other are Gb/Gd.

One is floating, one is Down on the grounD. if you didn't get that, G(d) is not floating.
For G(d) I use a french G perm that does a right corner swap and some weird thing with the edges. Its (R U R' U') D R2 U' (R U' R' U R') U R2 D'.
Its sexy, D, bring up white, put the 2x3 yellow in front of you, take out the right pair of the 2x3, and replace the one in its place, U put it back, and undo D R2 U'.
Complicated, but I find learning algs by what they do to the colors.

I do R2' F' R U R U' R' F' R U2' R' U2 R' F2 R2 (block on FL, headlights on B). Inverse of the Gc perm. Not quite as fast, but still very fast.

 

[mark49152]

Yep, block and headlights opposite each other are Gb/Gd.

I use the French G perms, starting with D/D' (inverse of Phillip's). The way I remember them now is that if the block is against the FR corner (front or side) the alg starts with D', and likewise D for BR. The algs for b/d are front/back mirrors so have the same patterns, likewise for a/c. It's easy enough and I have no idea why I sometimes get it wrong - perhaps I just misrecognised the case and it was actually an A perm or something.

 

[aboeglin]

N perms are among the least likely to occur (1 in 72 solves, each) so I suggest learning them last, as they will have least impact on your times.

G perms are a good candidate for learning early, as they are among the commonest. 1 in 4.5 solves ends in a G perm, and the four of them are easy to learn at the same time as they all share the same patterns.

You are probably correct. But I intend to finish to learn the algs by tonight or tomorrow, which means 3 to 4 days to learn the algs. I have J perms and G perms left. G perms might be frustrating at first, I like to start with easy stuff when I'm learning so that it gives me confidence and motivation. Also, even though N perms are less likely to happen doesn't mean you can skip them. Doing a method half way doesn't work for me, I either do 2 look PLL or full PLL, not a mix which would be pointless. You finish your 2 look OLL, then scan the LL for a PLL you know, after 3sec of inspection you realize it's actually a N perm you didn't learn yet, so you run your 2 look PLL that you could have done 3sec earlier.

That's why I really try to learn them as fast as possible. At the moment I time myself until after OLL only ( when I do full solves ). And then take my time to actually understand how to recognize different PLL cases. I'm still not great at recognizing, but it's been 2 days now. Once I know all the algs I'll have more time to focus on recognition.