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Heise Method Discussion thread

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Heise is incredibly fun, and I find it somewhat useful to know for fewest moves (very rare to submit a whole Heise solve for fewest moves, but the principles from it definitely can help, and using it for starts can get you pretty tolerable averages, even if they rarely result in winning results), but I know of no one who has ever gotten really fast with Heise. It typically takes me at least a minute to complete a full Heise solve; I average 20 seconds with CFOP. I know there are plenty of people who can sub-20 Heise, but most of them are probably twice as fast with CFOP.
Thank you for the information!
 
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Is Heise really all that efficient? What if you did steps 1 and 2 of Heise the same, and then inserted the F2L pair while maintaining EO, and then did ZBLL to complete? Seems like that should have a lower movecount.

Here's an attempt at some estimates of average movecount from F2L-1+EO cubestate using rough guesses.

Heise
Step 3: I have no idea, but if it's more than 10 moves, I would seriously doubt Heise's claim to being super efficient.
Step 4: ~8 (idk how commonly conjugates are needed, but 8 should be a lower bound if I understand commutators correctly)

Heise-a
LS: 6
ZBLL: 12 HTM (https://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/ZBLL)
= ~18 HTM?

Given that the only step I had hard numbers for was ZBLL, I tried to bias my estimates against Heise-a being better, if I was unsuccessful in that endeavor, so be it, though I'd appreciate being made aware of it so that I may be less unsuccessful the next time I try something like this.

Also, I'm not saying that either this or Heise is a good speedsolving method (nor the contrary), just trying to sort out whether or not Heise's reputation of being extremely efficient is deserved.

PS: Does anyone have numbers for average Heise movecounts? I assume it would be a tad lower than LLOB (41-45 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gs3THtRU5UCckKcM_5zjjm5RkJmGxHAJUnv6ta4lJhw/edit)), and LMCF (41-45 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2QnZ3uD6I8kNkpHSURSbzluc2s/view)).
 
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If Heise as a method should average approximately 40 moves (according to the wiki) and the LSLL (as I'll call it for now) takes approximately 9 moves on average for the commutator, and approximately 11 for the blocks, I would say that would be about 20 moves for the F2L-1, which would be about 2 moves less.

The thing with Heise's efficiency is that in a speedsolve, of course it won't average 40. In reality, it might be around 50. I ran Heise with a set block through HARCS and got about 39 moves per solve. Now this seems very low, until you realize that in HARCS, Roux/ZZ/Petrus all also get around 39 moves on average, despite the best solvers using those usually are high 40's low 50's.
 
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If Heise as a method should average approximately 40 moves (according to the wiki) and the LSLL (as I'll call it for now) takes approximately 9 moves on average for the commutator, and approximately 11 for the blocks, I would say that would be about 20 moves for the F2L-1, which would be about 2 moves less.

The thing with Heise's efficiency is that in a speedsolve, of course it won't average 40. In reality, it might be around 50. I ran Heise with a set block through HARCS and got about 39 moves per solve. Now this seems very low, until you realize that in HARCS, Roux/ZZ/Petrus all also get around 39 moves on average, despite the best solvers using those usually are high 40's low 50's.
Thanks for the response. I guess the gap between a lot of the methods in terms of raw average movecount is fairly close. I still want to learn Heise eventually, but if one can use another method with better ergonomics and lookahead and recognition that doesn't lose too much in terms of movecount for speedsolving, I guess that really does sink Heise in that department. :(
 
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If Heise as a method should average approximately 40 moves (according to the wiki) and the LSLL (as I'll call it for now) takes approximately 9 moves on average for the commutator, and approximately 11 for the blocks, I would say that would be about 20 moves for the F2L-1, which would be about 2 moves less.

The thing with Heise's efficiency is that in a speedsolve, of course it won't average 40. In reality, it might be around 50. I ran Heise with a set block through HARCS and got about 39 moves per solve. Now this seems very low, until you realize that in HARCS, Roux/ZZ/Petrus all also get around 39 moves on average, despite the best solvers using those usually are high 40's low 50's.
How did you get harcs to run heise?
 
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I've been trying to learn the Heise method for FMC purposes for a while now, and I get most of it, but 5E2C is what really gets me, and I don't know how exactly to get good solutions with it. My blockbuilding is also kind of crap even though I use Roux, so if anyone could direct me towards some good resources (besides Ryan's website, which I already know about), that would be amazing.
 

Mike Hughey

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I try to use Heise a lot for FMC, but to be honest, I'm pretty sloppy about it (and generally don't get that good results). But for what it's worth, I generally only try to do 5E instead of 5E2C, and then hope that what I get is good - either the best case where 5E2C luckily happens, or a case where my remaining 5 corners are nice to solve. 5E2C has always seemed pretty difficult to me.
 

Mike Hughey

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For me, when I use Heise for FMC, it's all about trying to get a good setup to 5 or 3 corners, and I also check for easy 4th pair/OLL/3 corners if there's no nice 5 edge solution. If I'm trying to go with Heise, I try as many starts as possible and count the moves to 5 or 3 corners, looking for as many as I can get before about 40 minutes are up. Then I take the best one and try to find good insertions for it. I used that strategy when I got my one decent mean of 3 (29 moves) in official competition. With Heise, it's usually possible to find 8 or 10 decent 2x2x2 pseudo blocks to start with, and then go from there and take the best one.
 
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Hi

I have been lurking in the speedcubing community for a couple of years, mostly focusing on sovling my cubes not so much speed. I am now trying to learn speedcubing with roux and heise as my main methods since I love using intuitive moves to solve the cube.

I feel though that with step 3 of heise I often get stuck with 2 corner and 2 edges that are not solved corectly instead of 3 corners. I can often understand what caused the mistanke but I dont understand how to proceed.

I find it hard to use communtators, since either I would try to solve the edges or the corners first. But when i try to do it step wise I end up with the same problem. Anyone have any tips to how you can solve this state using commutators?
 
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Obligatory heise is too complicated to speedsolve really (Assuming vanilla heise- there's speedheise variants but i haven't looked into those for a while)

That aside, have a look at some of the 3bld "parity" algs and use them to solve 2e2c or similar (j perm or similar is common but there might be faster ones for your case)
 
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Hi

I have been lurking in the speedcubing community for a couple of years, mostly focusing on sovling my cubes not so much speed. I am now trying to learn speedcubing with roux and heise as my main methods since I love using intuitive moves to solve the cube.

I feel though that with step 3 of heise I often get stuck with 2 corner and 2 edges that are not solved corectly instead of 3 corners. I can often understand what caused the mistanke but I dont understand how to proceed.

I find it hard to use communtators, since either I would try to solve the edges or the corners first. But when i try to do it step wise I end up with the same problem. Anyone have any tips to how you can solve this state using commutators?
Try and find some algs for these cases that you can understand in terms of commutators and just set up to them

for example:

J perm = [R U R' F': [R U R' U', l']] U'
T perm = [F R U' R': J perm]
 
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