Heise Method Discussion thread

[brododragon]

Solve two edges/corners, with the third affected edge/corner simply moving places with one comm, then use another comm to solve the remaining 3 edges/corners. Having 2c2c/2e2e is similar to hitting your buffer in BLD, where you have to now start a new cycle/com

Is there a way to do it with 1 comm?

 

[ProStar]

Is there a way to do it with 1 comm?

No, that's why it's known as 2c2c instead of 4c, because you solve 2 corners then 2 corners. 4c is where your 4 corners can be solved in succession, kind of like doing a BLD solve where you don't reach your buffer

Edit: I guess technically you could do 5-style type stuff, but that's not feasible

 

[brododragon]

No, that's why it's known as 2c2c instead of 4c, because you solve 2 corners then 2 corners. 4c is where your 4 corners can be solved in succession, kind of like doing a BLD solve where you don't reach your buffer

Edit: I guess technically you could do 5-style type stuff, but that's not feasible

Is there any way to make intuitive 5-stylr comms?

 

[Tao Yu]

You can modify the alg I posted just there to a 2c2c by replacing the U2 with a U: [F' R D2 R' F, U]. It's usually easiest to just do two 3 cycles though as ProStar has said.

 

[brododragon]

You can modify the alg I posted just there to a 2c2c by replacing the U2 with a U: [F' R D2 R' F, U]. It's usually easiest to just do two 3 cycles though as ProStar has said.

So, swap two corners, then, instead of swapping them back, swap two different corners back?

 

[Tao Yu]

So, swap two corners, then, instead of swapping them back, swap two different corners back?

Yeah. Often easier said than done (and could be less efficient than just two 3 cycles).

 

[dudefaceguy]

I've been learning Heise from Ryan Heise’s guide and I almost have it down except for corner twist cases. I’ve learned commutators from J Perm but can't seem to find a way to solve something like this: View attachment 11854
(Both corners are permuted but incorrectly oriented).

Hey, I love Heise method! The commutator that I use for a corner flip is very simple because I figured it out myself years ago. For example, [R U R' U' R U R', D]. It's obviously not move optimal, but it's very fast and easy to perform from anywhere on the U or D face. I should probably go learn a shorter flip - I have nothing to prove from using my own commutator at this point. It's been quite long enough.

I'm learning Heise (basically just from the wiki article), how do I perform EO while pairing up the Heise blocks? I'm also having trouble with solving the edges + 2 corners while finishing F2L

From a draft of my intuitive cubing guide:

You may get stuck on step 3 of the Heise method. Here is a simple heuristic to make it easier. In order to finish solving edges in 3 moves, you need to have exactly 3 unsolved edges: 2 in the top layer, and 1 in the keyhole. If you have 2 or 4 unsolved edges, here is a trick to convert any other case to 3 unsolved edges every time:

1. Make sure that you have a top-layer edge piece in the keyhole, and all edges are correctly oriented (i.e. the top-face color is on top).
2. Note the color of the side sticker on the edge that is in the keyhole spot. For example, if the top face is blue, then the side sticker is the sticker that is not
blue.
3. Find the edge on the top layer that has the opposite-color side sticker. Red is opposite orange, blue is opposite green, and white is opposite yellow.
4. Move the edge in the keyhole to the top layer adjacent to its opposite piece, then move the opposite piece into the keyhole.
5. Adjust the top layer until you see 2 solved edges in the top layer.

You can then proceed to solve the top-layer edges by replacing the unsolved top-layer edge with the edge in the keyhole, and putting the keyhole edge in the keyhole spot.

This heuristic also works if you are doing pair commutators after making the two pairs, for example. As others have said, just look at the examples on Heise's site over and over again, and it will eventually click.

As for EO, you won't always be able to complete it while finishing the blocks. Heise's site has some good examples of EO cases after the blocks are already in place, such as using a sledgehammer.

 

[brododragon]

Hey, I love Heise method! The commutator that I use for a corner flip is very simple because I figured it out myself years ago. For example, [R U R' U' R U R', D]. It's obviously not move optimal, but it's very fast and easy to perform from anywhere on the U or D face. I should probably go learn a shorter flip - I have nothing to prove from using my own commutator at this point. It's been quite long enough.

I'm using Tao Yu's optimal one. I found the one you've shown, but I'm into FMC. Also, his one is pretty fast, too, maybe even faster because of how short it is.

Is Heise really all that efficient? What if you did steps 1 and 2 of Heise the same, and then inserted the F2L pair while maintaining EO, and then did ZBLL to complete? Seems like that should have a lower movecount.

Here's an attempt at some estimates of average movecount from F2L-1+EO cubestate using rough guesses.

Heise
Step 3: I have no idea, but if it's more than 10 moves, I would seriously doubt Heise's claim to being super efficient.
Step 4: ~8 (idk how commonly conjugates are needed, but 8 should be a lower bound if I understand commutators correctly)

Heise-a
LS: 6
ZBLL: 12 HTM (https://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/ZBLL)
= ~18 HTM?

Given that the only step I had hard numbers for was ZBLL, I tried to bias my estimates against Heise-a being better, if I was unsuccessful in that endeavor, so be it, though I'd appreciate being made aware of it so that I may be less unsuccessful the next time I try something like this.

Also, I'm not saying that either this or Heise is a good speedsolving method (nor the contrary), just trying to sort out whether or not Heise's reputation of being extremely efficient is deserved.

PS: Does anyone have numbers for average Heise movecounts? I assume it would be a tad lower than LLOB (41-45 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gs3THtRU5UCckKcM_5zjjm5RkJmGxHAJUnv6ta4lJhw/edit)), and LMCF (41-45 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2QnZ3uD6I8kNkpHSURSbzluc2s/view)).

What do you guys think of this?

 

[WoowyBaby]

I'm using Tao Yu's optimal one. I found the one you've shown, but I'm into FMC. Also, his one is pretty fast, too, maybe even faster because of how short it is.

What do you guys think of this?

Heise LSLL is no doubt the most efficient method of finishing the cube after EOF2L-1.

Solving F2L -> ZBLL is pretty efficient, at roughly 23-24 moves on average. F2L -> ZBLL is a lot better than most other things, like WV into PLL or something of that nature. It's honestly pretty good for efficiency after EOF2L-1. Although, I'd guess Heise is 20 on average. If not 20, then just some number lower than ZBLL.
If you want me to, I can do a bunch of Heise LSLL examples so you can get a better vision of how efficient it really is.

 

[brododragon]

Heise LSLL is no doubt the most efficient way of finishing the cube after EOF2L-1.

That's interesting, because it's also more speedsolving-oriented.

 

[WoowyBaby]

That's interesting, because it's also more speedsolving-oriented.

Clarification: Most efficient speedsolving method for EOF2L-1 devised so far. Sorry about that. Obviously an optimal 1-phase solver is going to be more efficient simply by definition.
Edit- It is most certainly not the most efficient two-step / 2-phase EOF2L-1 method physically possible. There is some other two-step method that is more efficient than Heise's LSLL on average, but it's probably not usable for humans whatsoever (but exists).

 

[brododragon]

Clarification: Most efficient speedsolving method for EOF2L-1 devised so far. Sorry about that. Obviously an optimal 1-phase solver is going to be more efficient simply by definition.
Edit- It is most certainly not the most efficient two-step / 2-phase EOF2L-1 method physically possible. There is some other two-step method that is more efficient than Heise's LSLL on average, but it's probably not usable for humans whatsoever (but exists).

Ya I meant for humans.

 

[dudefaceguy]

I'm using Tao Yu's optimal one. I found the one you've shown, but I'm into FMC. Also, his one is pretty fast, too, maybe even faster because of how short it is.

I tried this flip commutator and I like how elegant it is. I will try employing it in my solves. This is a good excuse to practice some Heise! I've never really gotten the "one pair" approach down.

 

[bulerias]

Are there decent commutators for flipping two edges? I use [[M',U'] M':U2,D] which works but is cumbersome and inefficient.

 

[bcube]

Are there decent commutators for flipping two edges?

The one I am using (as a non-speed cuber) is this:



1-5: A
6: B
7-11: A'
12: B'

12 is optimal in STM by the way.

 

[Jorian Meeuse]

Are there decent commutators for flipping two edges? I use [[M',U'] M':U2,D] which works but is cumbersome and inefficient.

J

Post in thread 'Jorian Meeuse's progression thread (Kinch WR230 ER70 NR4)'

Sep 1, 2023

This post will serve as my database for flips and twists for 3BLD. I just (finally) made a list of algs for all 2-flips on edges, as I usually just did those intuitively with rotations and everything.

Spoiler: WARNING: contains some VERY weird algs

UF UB: U’ S R’ F’ R S’ R’ F R U’ M’ U2 M
UF UR: Rw U R’ U’ Rw’ U2 R U R U’ R2 U2 R
UF UL: U’ Rw U R’ U’ Rw’ U2 R U R U’ R2 U2 R U
UF BL: R E’ R’ U’ R E R2 E2 R U R’ E2 R
UF FL: R‘ E R U‘ R‘ E‘ R2 E2 R‘ U R E2 R‘
UF FR: R Rw U R’ U’ Rw’ U2 R U R U’ R2 U2
UF BR: M‘ U R’ U’ Rw’ U2 R U R U’ R2 U2 R2
UF DF: U2 M’ U2 M U’ S R’ F’ R S’ R’ F R U
UF DB: U2 M U’ S R’ F’ R S’ R’ F R U’ M’
UF DR: R’...

• Jorian Meeuse

• 

The spoiler in this post contains an alg for every 2 edge-flip case. Not all are comms, but they are good algs in my opinion

 

[bulerias]

The one I am using (as a non-speed cuber) is this:



1-5: A
6: B
7-11: A'
12: B'

12 is optimal in STM by the way.

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for!

 

[bcube]

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for!

Glad to hear that. I made a small correction to the original post - now it is even more clear to me because I can see the edges to be flipped better throughout the algorithm/commutator. If you like M and U moves (speed cubers propably like it better than R and E moves), simply rotate the whole cube accordingly. Of course you don´t need to do anything if you like the original commutator.

 

[abunickabhi]

What is the fewest moves official solve ever done in a WCA competition with heise method?