[Help Thread] Finger Tricks Discussion and Help

[Deleted member 36445]

also, convince max park to do double flicks then I'll do ring/pinky

 

[OreKehStrah]

also, convince max park to do double flicks then I'll do ring/pinky

That’s one of the most insensitive things I’ve seen recently on the forums. Regardless of if YOU care about improvement and using proper technique, I will continue to promote good habits.

 

[Deleted member 36445]

That’s one of the most insensitive things I’ve seen recently on the forums. Regardless of if YOU care about improvement and using proper technique, I will continue to promote good habits.

I'm not against promoting good habits, is just about being reasonable about what one can or cannot do.

 

[OreKehStrah]

I'm not against promoting good habits, is just about being reasonable about what one can or cannot do.

Then maybe stop eyerolling every single post I make about fixing bad habits on fingertricks. Fixing fingertricks is completely doable for anyone without motor impairments.

 

[xyzzy]

Yes and it is more than likely that your finger muscles are not developed and this not very strong. And the only way to fix this is to just do the slower thing until it’s faster instead of ingraining a bad habit.

The thing that bothers me about "conventional wisdom" like this is that, how would you verify/falsify this statement?

There's a bunch of people who switched from middle+ring to ring+pinky and report that their A perms improved a bit.

There's also a separate bunch of people who tried both ways, and ended up on the conclusion that middle+ring is faster.

How come we only ever listen to the former group? How much time does one have to spend on using ring+pinky to conclude that it's not actually better than middle+ring for them?

Never mind the question of whether ring+pinky is necessary at the top level, which is a question a lot of people seem to be interested in but also entirely meaningless to the majority of us. If true, that merely means that people for whom middle+ring will always be faster are gated away from being top-level, but most people are not going to be top-level regardless of which way they do their D2s.

(I switched from middle-ring to pinky-ring some years back, pretty much just as an experiment. I think big cubes was also a factor(?); pinky-ring is more consistent than middle-ring for big cubes because there are more fingers available to grip the cube, rather than wasting the left pinky hanging in air.)

 

[OreKehStrah]

The thing that bothers me about "conventional wisdom" like this is that, how would you verify/falsify this statement?

There's a bunch of people who switched from middle+ring to ring+pinky and report that their A perms improved a bit.

There's also a separate bunch of people who tried both ways, and ended up on the conclusion that middle+ring is faster.

How come we only ever listen to the former group? How much time does one have to spend on using ring+pinky to conclude that it's not actually better than middle+ring for them?

Never mind the question of whether ring+pinky is necessary at the top level, which is a question a lot of people seem to be interested in but also entirely meaningless to the majority of us. If true, that merely means that people for whom middle+ring will always be faster are gated away from being top-level, but most people are not going to be top-level regardless of which way they do their D2s.

(I switched from middle-ring to pinky-ring some years back, pretty much just as an experiment. I think big cubes was also a factor(?); pinky-ring is more consistent than middle-ring for big cubes because there are more fingers available to grip the cube, rather than wasting the left pinky hanging in air.)

Sure that’s a completely valid argument. The thing many don’t acknowledge about this when saying that after fair testing, they find ring middle to be faster is that doesn’t include the time it takes to adjust the grip to their faster execution and then return to a normal grip. Are you really faster in the long run when you add in the time to adjust the grip?
Do you really want to be doing F2L and have to rotate your grip just to do a D2?

 

[xyzzy]

This R perm:
R U R' F' R U2 R' U2 R' F R U R U2 R'

Execute starting from home grip versus thumb on bottom?

I'm firmly in the former camp (start in home grip, no regrips), but I was talking to someone earlier and they said they were taught to do the latter—by someone who is much faster than either of us. I can't really see any advantage to the latter execution, though.

 

[Timona]

This R perm:
R U R' F' R U2 R' U2 R' F R U R U2 R'

Execute starting from home grip versus thumb on bottom?

I'm firmly in the former camp (start in home grip, no regrips), but I was talking to someone earlier and they said they were taught to do the latter—by someone who is much faster than either of us. I can't really see any advantage to the latter execution, though.

I only use the alg for 4x4 and 5x5, and when I do I start with thumb on bottom

 

[ruffleduck]

This R perm:
R U R' F' R U2 R' U2 R' F R U R U2 R'

Execute starting from home grip versus thumb on bottom?

I'm firmly in the former camp (start in home grip, no regrips), but I was talking to someone earlier and they said they were taught to do the latter—by someone who is much faster than either of us. I can't really see any advantage to the latter execution, though.

I would much prefer starting from grip on bottom. Less reloads and less pinches, only at the cost of one small grip shift after the second U2. More consistent and faster.

 

[xyzzy]

Less reloads and less pinches, only at the cost of one small grip shift after the second U2.

Am I missing something here?

Regripless execution:
R
U (left index / right index) (PINCH if using right index)
R'
F' (right thumb / left index) (PINCH if using left index)
R
U2' (left index+middle)
R'
U2 (right index+middle)
R'
F (right index) (RELOAD)
R
U (right index / right middle) (RELOAD if using right index)
R
U2' (left index+middle)
R'

or

R
U2' (left index+middle)
R'
U2' (left index+middle) (RELOAD)
R'
F (right index)

(or eido-ing the U2s etc. but that applies to both initial grips)

---

Initial bottom grip execution:
R
U (right index)
R'
F' (right index)
R
U2 (right index+middle)
R'
U2' (left index+middle) (REGRIP right hand)
R'
F (right index)
R
U (right index / right middle) (RELOAD if using right index)
R
U2' (left index+middle)
R'

Seems to be trading off
(i) 2 marginally harder fingertricks + 1 reload
against
(ii) 1 regrip during the alg executed concurrently with a move + 1 regrip before the alg (assuming OLL ended in home grip).

I could see a case for the latter execution if OLL ended with thumb on bottom (just as you would start executing standard T perm or Jb perm with thumb on bottom if your grip was already there), but otherwise this doesn't seem worthwhile. Or at least, it's subjective.

---

Checking on SCDB…
Feliks:

(home grip, all U2s done lefty)
Matty:

(thumb on bottom, left index for the F'; both right-hand regrips were done during lefty U2s)
Matty (again):

(thumb on bottom, left index for the F'; initial regrip cost ~0.2 s)
Matty (yet again):

(home grip, right thumb for the F', shifts to a weird in-between grip during the first R' move, then has another grip shift back to home grip; all U2s done lefty)

 

[ruffleduck]

Regripless execution:
R
U (left index / right index) (PINCH if using right index)
R'
F' (right thumb / left index) (PINCH if using left index)
R
U2' (left index+middle) OVERWORK
R'
U2 (right index+middle)
R'
F (right index) (RELOAD) OVERWORK
R
U (right index / right middle) (RELOAD if using right index) OVERWORK
R
U2' (left index+middle)
R'

3 major overworks and 2 pinches versus regrip-first execution with no overworks and 0.5 pinches (F' when right hand is on bottom is less of a pinch than from home grip).

 

[xyzzy]

3 major overworks

Hard disagree on the first "major overwork" you listed. Yeah, if you use left index F', that overworks your left hand… so just use a different finger to do the F'? Matty does this R perm alg both ways, but he always uses his thumb for F' regardless (edit) and he uses thumb F' for the home grip execution. Maybe, in a vacuum, left index F' is faster than right thumb F', but this seems like exactly the kind of situation where the scales might tip in favour of thumb F'.

The third listed "major overwork" is also shared between both executions, so it's a bit disingenuous to list it as a downside for only the regripless execution.

(I'm not saying you're wrong if you prefer the regrip-first exec, or that your reasons for preferring one to the other are wrong. I just don't think your reasons are necessarily applicable to most cubers. I am now convinced that regrip-first exec can be good if there's an initial U2 or U' AUF (can do regrip during AUF) or if OLL ended in bottom grip, but still unconvinced that it's always the best option.)

 

[ruffleduck]

Maybe, in a vacuum, left index F' is faster than right thumb F',

Regrip-starting execution has this advantage.

but this seems like exactly the kind of situation where the scales might tip in favour of thumb F'.

Relative to the rest of the regripless alg, thumb F' is good. But relative to the pure left index F' in the regrip-starting alg, it's worse.

The third listed "major overwork" is also shared between both executions, so it's a bit disingenuous to list it as a downside for only the regripless execution.

My apologies

 

[OreKehStrah]

Am I missing something here?

Regripless execution:
R
U (left index / right index) (PINCH if using right index)
R'
F' (right thumb / left index) (PINCH if using left index)
R
U2' (left index+middle)
R'
U2 (right index+middle)
R'
F (right index) (RELOAD)
R
U (right index / right middle) (RELOAD if using right index)
R
U2' (left index+middle)
R'

or

R
U2' (left index+middle)
R'
U2' (left index+middle) (RELOAD)
R'
F (right index)

(or eido-ing the U2s etc. but that applies to both initial grips)

---

Initial bottom grip execution:
R
U (right index)
R'
F' (right index)
R
U2 (right index+middle)
R'
U2' (left index+middle) (REGRIP right hand)
R'
F (right index)
R
U (right index / right middle) (RELOAD if using right index)
R
U2' (left index+middle)
R'

Seems to be trading off
(i) 2 marginally harder fingertricks + 1 reload
against
(ii) 1 regrip during the alg executed concurrently with a move + 1 regrip before the alg (assuming OLL ended in home grip).

I could see a case for the latter execution if OLL ended with thumb on bottom (just as you would start executing standard T perm or Jb perm with thumb on bottom if your grip was already there), but otherwise this doesn't seem worthwhile. Or at least, it's subjective.

---

Checking on SCDB…
Feliks:

(home grip, all U2s done lefty)
Matty:

(thumb on bottom, left index for the F'; both right-hand regrips were done during lefty U2s)
Matty (again):

(thumb on bottom, left index for the F'; initial regrip cost ~0.2 s)
Matty (yet again):

(home grip, right thumb for the F', shifts to a weird in-between grip during the first R' move, then has another grip shift back to home grip; all U2s done lefty)

For the regripless exec, you can avoid the reload on the F move by doing it with the left thumb

 

[Noob's Cubes]

How to fingertrick this alg better?

R' U' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' U R

 

[espeed]

Push the F' with your right index finger

 

[Noob's Cubes]

Noice ty.

 

[Anthonycube]

This R perm:
R U R' F' R U2 R' U2 R' F R U R U2 R'

Execute starting from home grip versus thumb on bottom?

I'm firmly in the former camp (start in home grip, no regrips), but I was talking to someone earlier and they said they were taught to do the latter—by someone who is much faster than either of us. I can't really see any advantage to the latter execution, though.

I use that R perm an l I do it regripless. U2s done with left hand

 

[pranavAR]

I want to try roux oh but i can barely do M' and i cant do M at all. (Dont say table abuse)

 

[abunickabhi]

Any idea guys on how to fingertrick this alg, S' R' D M' U' M' U M2 D' R ?

It solves UF-UL-FR-RU-RB.