Erm... it's still 17 moves... People really need to stop measuring algorithm length in HTM and switch to QTM (or perhaps ETM) instead. Any double turn is clearly going to take longer to execute than a quarter turn. QTM or ETM is definitely a far superior measure. You know it makes sense...On the wikis PLL page, it posts the most common algs first, right? Well, The first Y-perm is that horrible 17 move one. I have come up with a 13 move one. R' U' Lw D2' Lw' U R Dw R2 U' R2 U' R2 Never again will I use the 17 move one.