I personally think that redux is infact a lot harder than yau in terms of edgepairing look ahead.

This is definitely true.

Therefore getting "decent" speeds with redux will translate to much faster speeds with Yau.

This would seem logical enough, but it is only true once the solver in question has actually practiced Yau enough to be as familiar with it as they are with reduction. Sure, lookahead is easier during most of the steps of Yau, but that doesn't change the fact that someone who has only ever practiced redux will not be as fast as he could be at Yau L4C when he first tries it, nor will he be as good at F3E as he could be. There is no direct correlation between a random cuber's redux speed and Yau speed. Being faster with Yau requires practicing Yau, and there is no way around that. Practicing redux may help you develop lookahead because of how difficult it is, but guess what? If someone solves with Yau from the beginning, they will still develop lookahead. And the lookahead they develop will actually be tailored to the way the Yau method works, something a redux solver doesn't quite have yet.

Regular redux teaches some basic efficiency that you need to know when solving the 4x4.

And how would Yau not? Just because it is the way you (and many others) learned does not make it the only way, or the best way. (And no, I'm not arguing that starting with Yau early on is any better, I'm just pointing out that there's no good reason to believe it is worse)

Say Cuber A and Cuber B both average 1:30 at 4x4, and Cuber A got there entirely with redux, while Cuber B started with Yau from the beginning. Cuber A then tries a couple of Yau solves and his movecount is noted. Cuber B also does a couple of Yau solves and records his movecount. Which do you think will have a lower movecount, disregarding parities?

EDIT:
I just think the most efficient way to train 4x4 would be

I avoided responding to this part at first because I didn't want to be condescending (my initial reaction was something like "Why is this guy who only seems to average around 1:15 trying to talk about the most efficient way to train?"), but after a few more minutes to think, I have something more useful to say. "The most efficient way to train" is probably not the same for everyone, considering how differently people think. But even if it were, it's not something any of us can really determine. Every one of us only 'trains' once. We start slow, we get faster, and that's it. Sure, an extended lack of practice will make you slow down, but you will never again be that 2-minute-plus 4x4-solver in the position of understanding very little about the cube. This makes it impossible for anybody to objectively compare different ways of learning to cube. Nobody can go back and try it again a different way. So unless someone is doing something obviously illogical in their practicing, I see no reason to try to suggest to someone to completely change what they are doing. Practice with whatever method you like, and do whatever you like, and as long as you put some thought into what you are doing, it is inevitable that you will get better over time, and none of us has the ability to rightly declare that a different way of doing things would have worked any better.
 
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New to 4x4.

I just ordered my very first 4x4. It's Shengshou v5. Where should i start? I know how to solve 4x4 with begginers method, should I switch to Yau or what? My friend has 4x4 so I solved 4x4 a few times with begginers.
 
When you say beginners I am assuming you mean reduction which can be used to become very fast. Yau and other sub-methods are worth considering as they make some steps of reduction easier. I think you should try out Yau and see if you find it more or less awkward than normal reduction and go on from there. Personally I use Hoya as I find it the most fluent. Don't feel like you should break a certain barrier before you switch methods, switch whenever you feel comfortable.
 
When I see parity on 4x4 I often resort to 4LLL. For orientation I will flip an edge then do OLL, and I only know half the OLLs anyway, so sometimes that's three algs. For PLL I struggle to recognise a case when there's parity, and sometimes I misrecognise regular cases because I'm looking for parity, so usually I will permute corners then fix parity if it's not a regular EPLL case.

I'm thinking of learning some algs to do 4LLL more systematically. So, learn two OLL parity cases for solving EO when there are 1 or 3 edges flipped, and learn extra EPLL cases with parity combined. Thus I would no longer be solving parity as a separate step, but assimilated as part of EO or EP.

Does anyone else do this? Is there a good alg set available? I found EO algs on the wiki page, but can't find EP algs.

Thanks, I could learn COLL but that's not what I'm asking. I'm interested in EPLL+parity. Sure I could do edge control or FRUR'U'F, as I do today, but would rather learn EOLL+parity.

Does an EPLL+parity alg set exist?

Just saw these posts. For EOLL+parity, it's actually very easy, since there are only two cases, 1 or 3 edges flipped. Obviously, for one edge flipped, just put that flipped edge at UF and do your regular alg. For 3 edges flipped, put the good edge at UR, do a B' R' setup, your regular parity alg, and then R B to undo the setup.

Parity EPLL also has very few cases:
1. Opposite swap - regular PLL parity alg

2. Adjacent swap - any sexy move type setup to put the two edges opposite each other, PLL parity alg, undo setup. (The setup has to be a R U R' U' type of thing that maintains the edge's orientation. If you just do, for example, R B to move the UR edge to UB, your parity alg will result in the two edges being flipped)

3. M/W perm (whatever it's called) - In this case, two of the edges are the opposite color of the corner stickers they are between (i.e. red edge between orange corner stickers), and the other two edges are an adjacent color of the corner stickers (i.e. blue edge between red corner stickers). AUF so that the two edges that are the opposite color of their surrounding corners are at UF and UL. The alg (with lowercase letters denoting inner slice turns) is M2 U M' U2 M U l2 U2 r2 Uw2 r2 Uw2

4,5. O perms - All four edges are an adjacent color of their surrounding corner stickers (the four edges need to be cycled around in a circle). Here are the algs:

Edges need to go counterclockwise - M2 U M2 U M' U2 l2 U2 r2 Uw2 r2 u2 M'
Edges need to go clockwise - M2 U' M2 U' M' U2 l2 U2 r2 Uw2 r2 u2 M'


Note that all the EPLLs, parity or not, can be recognized by just looking at the L,F,R faces, you don't need to look around at all four sides (in fact, this is true of all the PLLs). I'll let you work out the recognition for them, if you need any help with it, feel free to ask here.
 
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I'm currently working towards getting sub 1:30.
Ignoring the 3x3 stage(just CFOP improvements, I'm probably faster at CFOP F2l on 4x4 then I am on 3x3), my biggest weakpoint I think are the first 3 cross edges, the remaining centers and the last cross edge. I developed a "habbit" to hold the white center to my right. I would then pair the cross edges, which is fine with the right hand holding the cross side I guess. BUT when I do my remaining centers, what I do is I grip the cross with my right hand and move both Lw and R with both hands. For example If I have a bar on the bottom right and on on the top right, I would actually move the buffer in R down with the bar, make sort of a upside down U2/D2 and move it back up to have the center on D made. Many top 4x4 solvers hold the cross to their left, which makes sense being right handed. They seem to be so much more efficient in their center building. My way of doing it seems like a mess in comarison. Should I try to switch hands and kinda adapt what they are doing? I think the buffer is mostly held on top left and only the right hand is used to solve the centers.
There's still the chance to change habbits. I hope my explanation was clear enough, it's hard to explain what I mean.

Oh and I still use a beginners OLL parity. Which one should I learn that doesn't take ages to execute?
 
For EOLL+parity ... For 3 edges flipped, put the good edge at UR, do a B' R' setup, your regular parity alg, and then R B to undo the setup.
I can't get that to work. If my regular OLL parity alg only flips one edge, how can I use it to flip 3 edges no matter what setup moves I use? It simply doesn't affect enough of the cube.

Also, I'd have to learn another 1-flip anyway, as my current alg disrupts the rest of the LL and with the above setup therefore destroys one F2L slot.

(M/W perm (whatever it's called) and O perms)
Thanks so much for these, and for the great explanation! These algs are way better than anything I found on the 4x4 parity algs page. They're exactly what I was looking for and 2-look PLL with embedded parity fixes is working quite nicely for me.

I like this approach because I found that trying to recognize parity was slowing me down - I would check out the PLL case from all four sides for an extra second or two just to be sure I didn't recognize it, before fixing parity. Concluding you don't recognize something is naturally slower than concluding you do! :) With the 2-look approach, if I don't positively recognize the PLL immediately, I solve corners knowing that I only have one step left after that regardless of parity, and recognition for the second step is easier.

Here's a summary of EPLL+parity:-

[table="width: 700, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td]Case[/td]
[td]Probability[/td]
[td]Alg[/td]
[td]SQTM,STM[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Ua perm[/td]
[td]1/6[/td]
[td]As 3x3[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Ub perm[/td]
[td]1/6[/td]
[td]As 3x3[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Adjacent swap[/td]
[td]1/6[/td]
[td](R2 D' x) r2 U2 r2 Uw2 r2 u2 (x' D R2)[/td]
[td]18,10[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]W perm[/td]
[td]1/6[/td]
[td]M2 U M' U2 M U l2 U2 r2 Uw2 r2 Uw2[/td]
[td]20,12[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Z perm[/td]
[td]1/12[/td]
[td]As 3x3[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Opposite swap[/td]
[td]1/12[/td]
[td]r2 U2 r2 Uw2 r2 u2[/td]
[td]12,6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]H perm[/td]
[td]1/24[/td]
[td]As 3x3[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Oa perm (ccw)[/td]
[td]1/24[/td]
[td]M2 U M2 U M' U2 l2 U2 r2 Uw2 r2 u2 M'[/td]
[td]22,13[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Ob perm (cw)[/td]
[td]1/24[/td]
[td]M2 U' M2 U' M' U2 l2 U2 r2 Uw2 r2 u2 M'[/td]
[td]22,13[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Solved![/td]
[td]1/24[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
 
What exactly is your current OLL parity alg? The exact effects mine has on the last layer are:
- Flips UF
- Swaps UFL and UFR corners (and twists them)
- Swaps UL and UR edges

It's the UL/UR swap that makes this work. The B' R' makes it so a correctly oriented edge is in UR, while UL had a bad edge to begin with. The parity alg then swaps the two, leaving a good edge at UL, and a bad edge at UR. Then undoing the setup turns that bad edge at UR into a good one. The one good edge that was originally in UR is moved out of the last layer by the setup, ensuring that it keeps its orientation, and finally the UF edge is directly flipped by the parity alg. This all adds up to a set of four correctly oriented edges.
 
What exactly is your current OLL parity alg?
Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense. I've read in a few places that 3-flip can be achieved by B' R' 1-flip R B but that's not actually true if it depends on some other undefined property of a subset of 1-flip algs.

The 1-flip alg I use is (Rw U2 Rw' U2) x B2 U2 (Rw U2 Rw' U2) (Lw U2 Lw') B2 Rw x'. This one flips the front edge and its adjacent corners but does not swap UL and UR. Suggestions for better algs welcome.
 
F2C: 7.65
F3E: 13.35
L4C: 15.41
LCE: 5.45
L8E: 17.10
3x3: 29.64 (My 3x3 cube average is 20s)
Total: 1:28.61 (PD: I usually average 1:25.00)
What should I improve? Last 4 centers? And how to practice?
 
OK so I searched the wiki and found nice OLL parity algs that flip UR and UL, and the setup to 3-flip works a treat. Here is a summary of EOLL+parity. Obviously for non-parity cases I will do full OLL rather than EOLL where I know the case.

[table="width: 850, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td]Case[/td]
[td]Probability[/td]
[td]Alg[/td]
[td]SQTM,STM[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Solved![/td]
[td]1/16[/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3 edges good[/td]
[td]1/4[/td]
[td](Rw U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2 Rw U2) (Lw' U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2) x' (Rw’ U2 Rw')[/td]
[td]25,17[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2 edges good (bar)[/td]
[td]1/8[/td]
[td]As 3x3[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2 edges good (L)[/td]
[td]1/4[/td]
[td]As 3x3[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1 edge good[/td]
[td]1/4[/td]
[td]B' (r U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2 Rw U2) (Lw' U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2) x' (Rw’ U2 r') B[/td]
[td]27,19[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]0 edges good[/td]
[td]1/16[/td]
[td]As 3x3[/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
 
Oh cool, so you already know an alg that just affects the one edge and two corners. That's actually a double parity alg. Now may be earlier than you want to mess with this kind of thing, but that type of alg can be used to do easy 1-look OLL for every parity case where there is one bad edge and exactly two misoriented corners. I'll write them out here for anyone interested (and my own reference heh)

U cases:
Headlights on front - either parity alg
Headlights on back - (L R') (either parity alg) (R L')
Headlights on left - (B' R') (double parity alg) (B R)
Headlights on right - (B L) (double parity alg) (L' B')

T cases:
Bad corners on front - (R2 B R') (double parity alg) (R B' R2)
Bad corners on back - (L B' R2) (double parity alg) (R2 B L')
Bad corners on left - (B2 R2) (double parity alg) (R2 B2)
Bad corners on right - (B2 L2) (double parity alg) (L2 B2)

L cases (I'll list the locations of the LL-color stickers of the misoriented corners):
LFU,BRU - (B' R2) (double parity alg) (R2 B)
RFU,BLU - (B L2) (double parity alg) (L2 B')
FLU,RBU - (R B R') (either parity alg) (R B' R')
or (U R' U' R) (either parity alg) (R' U R)
FRU,LBU - (L' B' L) (either parity alg) (L' B L)
or (R U R' U R U2 R') (either parity alg)
or (U' L U L') (either parity alg) (L U' L')
 
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I'm currently working towards getting sub 1:30.
Ignoring the 3x3 stage(just CFOP improvements, I'm probably faster at CFOP F2l on 4x4 then I am on 3x3), my biggest weakpoint I think are the first 3 cross edges, the remaining centers and the last cross edge. I developed a "habbit" to hold the white center to my right. I would then pair the cross edges, which is fine with the right hand holding the cross side I guess. BUT when I do my remaining centers, what I do is I grip the cross with my right hand and move both Lw and R with both hands. For example If I have a bar on the bottom right and on on the top right, I would actually move the buffer in R down with the bar, make sort of a upside down U2/D2 and move it back up to have the center on D made. Many top 4x4 solvers hold the cross to their left, which makes sense being right handed. They seem to be so much more efficient in their center building. My way of doing it seems like a mess in comarison. Should I try to switch hands and kinda adapt what they are doing? I think the buffer is mostly held on top left and only the right hand is used to solve the centers.
There's still the chance to change habbits. I hope my explanation was clear enough, it's hard to explain what I mean.

Oh and I still use a beginners OLL parity. Which one should I learn that doesn't take ages to execute?

I really hate doing this, but does someone have some tips for my problem?
 
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