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PapaSmurf

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You don't need to learn a faster LL. You can get sub 9 with OCLL/PLL. The main things to work on are your LL TPS (sub 1.5 every PLL and OCLL) and make sure you inspect EOLine every solve (make sure you do EOCross though). Also, don't do dumb solutions.
 

TheSlykrCubr

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You don't need to learn a faster LL. You can get sub 9 with OCLL/PLL. The main things to work on are your LL TPS (sub 1.5 every PLL and OCLL) and make sure you inspect EOLine every solve (make sure you do EOCross though). Also, don't do dumb solutions.

thanks!

3 more questions:

1) I remeber seeing a PDF of objectively optimal COLL. Where can I find that?

2) When should I start Look-ahead?

3) When should I start inspecting more?
 

PapaSmurf

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1. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11dKvPUvD63LmcnU9jFeNmKq_yCn0YoMlibKkwQae_nM/edit
2. Lookahead isn't a thing you start, it's a thing you do (it's a verb, not a noun). If you don't lookahead, lookahead. Then lookahead as much as you can.
3. Now. Use unlimited inspection and always inspect your goal, so if it's EOLine, inspect EOLine. If it's EOCross, inspect EOCross etc. When comps stat up, maybe a few weeks before is when you start using 15s instead of unlimited.
 

Kaneki Uchiha

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Full ZB here.
I've tested LSLL with full ZB vs LSLL with mostly insert into OLL+PLL (will only force EO if it's a really fricking good ZBLS, and only do TUL, 2GLL H and Pi and diag H and Pi ZBLL sets) for both OH and 2h. Here are some results. Keep in mind that I still need to optimize both recog and algs, although my OH algs I'd say they suit me quite well. 2h: Standard stuff: 4.55 mo280 ZB: 4.60 mo280 OH: Standard stuff: 6.74 mo280 ZB: 6.42 mo280
this is from @FakeMMAP on jayden mcneils latest video
 
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can someone give tips for being sub 20 with zz? I use the OCLL/PLL last layer with some COLL's and average about 22. When I become sub 20, i'll learn a faster LL

A few tips:

1. Don't focus too much on LL. In fact, do not learn COLL, because it's slower than OCLL/PLL and it's a waste of time. You should learn how to recognize COLL if you want to learn a significant chunk of ZBLL later down the road, but it shouldn't be your main focus now. As for improving your LL in other ways, make sure you can recognize and execute the OCLL/PLL cases quickly.

2. If you're only planning EO in inspection and then doing cross, try to plan at least EOline. This will be helpful for the future.

3. Do a lot of untimed solves to gain better F2L efficiency and lookahead.

Really you don't need to do too much deliberate practice to get sub 20 with zz, it's just a matter of fixing bad habits if you have any, and then doing a lot of solves.
 

Toxhicide

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Years ago when I got into cubing, I learned the ZZ method, as no cube rotations really appealed to me, as well as the versatile F2L that it allows, letting you build blocks with the white colored blocks, effectively doubling the amount of blocks you can make, and the automatic top cross solve.

I can solve the cube in around 30 seconds, best solve around 21 seconds. I know full OCLL, and 2 step PLL (basic cuber corner permutation + H perm/Z perm/Ua perm/Ub perm). I don't know an algorithm for when corners are opposite colors, I just do corner perm algo twice.

I looked at the ZZ wiki and it seems it's blown up and there are now dozens of methods to augment it. I don't even know where to begin. There are different EOLine methods, phasing, lots of different ZBLL, etc. I'm a bit overwhelmed. I'd like to get faster sure, but it takes me at least 2-3 seconds to just do Z perm at my best, after practice. I use an old Dayan Zhanchi, so no magnetic cube here. I don't expect to be anywhere near Felix Zemdegs or whoever is fastest nowadays.

Because of my physical limitations or whatever, I really like methods that solve other portions of the cube, like how ZZ forms the yellow cross. I'm looking for a very efficient type of thing, like what phasing seems to be maybe? Lowest possible algorithm count, I like intuition, even though I'm bad at EOLine. Maybe something along the lines of FMC is better for me, though I do want to get sub 20 eventually, maybe even sub 10 if I can.

Can anyone help me navigate this cubing maze?
 
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carcass

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Hello! Not a ZZ user, but I will help you to the best of my ability.

A first thing to look at is how many lags you are wiling to learn. OCLL and PLL is the fewest algs for a good LL, and ZBLL being the highest.
Let's start with OCLL and PLL. This is good because the algs are well developed and there are only 28. It can also expand into Winter Variation, v. Summer Variation, and Brook's last edge. Overall, this is a method that is very good if you are unsure how many algorithms you will have time to learn in the future. With PLL, OCLL, WV, SV, and BLE, it is a total of 109 algs(I think). There is also COLL and EPLL(46 algs) along with OCELL and CPLL(44 algs). COLL gives 2 gen last layer, OCELL gives mostly 2 gen OLL, so make of that what you will. I would, however, love to see someone pioneer the latter, as CPLLs are very fast. You get an A perm most of the time, which is my fastest PLL.
Next, we have a few more options. You can permute the corners for a 2gll(ZZ-d), permute a couple edges for a ZZLL(ZZ-b), disorient all the edges for an H or Pi ZBLL(ZZ-Blah), and ZZCT where you insert the last edge to orient the corners followed by inserting a corner while solving PLL. I believe these are all the good methods for the middle range of algorithms. I will look at the listed method in order. ZZ-d has bad recog, so I would avoid it. ZZ-b is good because it drastically decreases the alg count of ZBLL without sacrificing many moves. ZZ-blah Has fewer algs, but slightly worse recog and it gives a worse last layer than ZZLL. ZZ-CT has difficult recognition, but it is still viable. As a result, I think the best methods in the middle range of algorithms are ZZ-b(169 algs) and ZZ-CT(197 algs).
Finally, we have the infamous ZZ-a, with 493 algs, 472 not including PLL. If you are willing to learn ZBLL, then best of luck to you. I recommend the Tao Yu trainer.

As a result, it depends on the alg count and the appeal of the method to you. If you want to learn the fewest algs and still have a fast last layer, OCLL and PLL. If you care a LOT about big cubes(doubt it because you use ZZ) and OH, COLL and EPLL. If you want to try a fast yet rare method, OCELL and CPLL. In the algorithm mid range, if you want little F2L LL influence, ZZ-b. If you like the concept of MGLS, ZZ-CT may appeal to you. Finally, if you want to use the best last layer method at any cost, learn ZZ-a. I hope this helps!
 

abunickabhi

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ZZ blockbuilding is full of RUL gen moves. RUL gen moves on 2021 hardware needs delicate hands. CFOP is the fastest on the current hardware as most of the algs are RUF. I would suggest you deliberately practice your RUL turning and see some timing improvements in your ZZ solves.
 

Toxhicide

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ZZ blockbuilding is full of RUL gen moves. RUL gen moves on 2021 hardware needs delicate hands. CFOP is the fastest on the current hardware as most of the algs are RUF. I would suggest you deliberately practice your RUL turning and see some timing improvements in your ZZ solves.

I hate F moves with a passion. My RUL moves are fine, it's mostly my thinking that is slow on that front when doing F2L, not my hand speed. I've been solving F2L with RUL for about 7/8 years now, so that is not an issue :)
 
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Swagrid

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1) use eocross. ergonomics and lookahead for zzf2l is far better.

2) The best methods or variants are basically just ZBLL, D, and OCLL/PLL.

If you use discord, we have a ZZ method solvers discord server that has all the information and algs you could want.
 

GenTheThief

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Years ago when I got into cubing, I learned the ZZ method, as no cube rotations really appealed to me, as well as the versatile F2L that it allows, letting you build blocks with the white colored blocks, effectively doubling the amount of blocks you can make, and the automatic top cross solve.

I can solve the cube in around 30 seconds, best solve around 21 seconds. I know full COLL, and 2 step PLL (basic cuber corner permutation + H perm/Z perm/Ua perm/Ub perm). I don't know an algorithm for when corners are opposite colors, I just do corner perm algo twice.

I looked at the ZZ wiki and it seems it's blown up and there are now dozens of methods to augment it. I don't even know where to begin. There are different EOLine methods, phasing, lots of different ZBLL, etc. I'm a bit overwhelmed. I'd like to get faster sure, but it takes me at least 2-3 seconds to just do Z perm at my best, after practice. I use an old Dayan Zhanchi, so no magnetic cube here. I don't expect to be anywhere near Felix Zemdegs or whoever is fastest nowadays.

Because of my physical limitations or whatever, I really like methods that solve other portions of the cube, like how ZZ forms the yellow cross. I'm looking for a very efficient type of thing, like what phasing seems to be maybe? Lowest possible algorithm count, I like intuition, even though I'm bad at EOLine. Maybe something along the lines of FMC is better for me, though I do want to get sub 20 eventually, maybe even sub 10 if I can.

Can anyone help me navigate this cubing maze?
It's great to see other ZZ users around! I use ZZ for mostly the same reasons that you noted, so I totally understand. Regarding the different types of EO steps, if you're comfortable with EOLine, then you can stick with that, as you'll still be able to use blocks. If you want a bit more ergonomically focused (albeit less interesting imo) start, then EOCross is generally what most fast people are using nowadays.

Last layer wise, you say that you know COLL, but I think you meant OCLL. OCLL is just when the corners are twisted, but COLL is when you permute them also. Learning the rest of full PLL in conjunction with OCLL will give you a pretty speedy LL. It's one of the simplest methods as well as one of the fastest. Very few algs, good recognition and very fast execution.

Some other good ZZ resources:
ZZ Discord - We can give you a bit more immediate/informative/conversational feedback and advise.
ZZ Website - Has a good description of a bunch of different variants and a general improvement guide.

If you join the discord, we'll be happy to help guide you through your maze towards satisfactory ZZ mastery ;).
 

PapaSmurf

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ZZ blockbuilding is full of RUL gen moves. RUL gen moves on 2021 hardware needs delicate hands. CFOP is the fastest on the current hardware as most of the algs are RUF. I would suggest you deliberately practice your RUL turning and see some timing improvements in your ZZ solves.
Just busting a myth: RUL turning does not require delicate hands. In a ZZ context, using EOCross, RUL can be more TPS spammy than CFOP - it's very not delicate!

As people have already said, EOCross is the best way to go. This will require a lot of dedicated practice to get good at, but people have done it and those who do are generally sub 10 (or faster)/pushing it. Another big thing is how you approach LL. You can get sub 8 with OCLL/PLL, so as a priority, push that as low as possible before learning any other algsets. I wouldn't recommend wasting your time on: full WV, full SV, full EJLS, full BLE, full COLL, ZZ-CT etc. I would recommend learning a few algs from a lot of these sets (especially COLL and definitely learn full COLL recog, even if you use OCLL for a certain case). Anyway, once you've got your OCLL/PLL to an adequate speed (whatever you deem adequate, probably around 1.2 max for PLL, sub 0.8 for OCLL while knowing full 2 sided PLL recog), learn 2GLL. You can build on that as you improve, but the main focus is really just EOCross+F2L until ZBLL will shave off a significant amount of time.Then learn ZBLLL.

Gen's already mentioned the discord. I'm on there too and we can help you out a lot more on there if you ever ask. Also get a new cube (would recommend the RS3M - it's cheap and really good). This will help more the faster you get.
 
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