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carcass

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@PapaSmurf I agree you can get fast with OCLL PLL but I don't think it should be considered a waste of time to learn non OCLL PLL prior to sub 8. Some people (like myself) just like learning algs, so it shouldn't be discouraged. Like I put in my previous post, learn as many algs as you want and pick one of the methods I mentioned or another one, whatever suits your preference.
 

PapaSmurf

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@PapaSmurf I agree you can get fast with OCLL PLL but I don't think it should be considered a waste of time to learn non OCLL PLL prior to sub 8. Some people (like myself) just like learning algs, so it shouldn't be discouraged. Like I put in my previous post, learn as many algs as you want and pick one of the methods I mentioned or another one, whatever suits your preference.

I wouldn't recommend wasting your time on: full WV, full SV, full EJLS, full BLE, full COLL, ZZ-CT etc. I would recommend learning a few algs from a lot of these sets (especially COLL and definitely learn full COLL recog, even if you use OCLL for a certain case). Anyway, once you've got your OCLL/PLL to an adequate speed (whatever you deem adequate, probably around 1.2 max for PLL, sub 0.8 for OCLL while knowing full 2 sided PLL recog), learn 2GLL. You can build on that as you improve, but the main focus is really just EOCross+F2L until ZBLL will shave off a significant amount of time.Then learn ZBLL.
I never said don't learn algs, I just gave a priority list if you want to get faster. It's just that sets like full WV, SV, BLE etc are disadvantageous rather than advantageous as at least some of the cases are slower than insert+OCLL/PLL.
 

Yuzuru0925

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Aug 17, 2020
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Im giving ZZ a shot to see if i can catch up to what i average with cfop and if i can surpass my avg. Im trying to get faster at EO but it takes a while for me to recognize how many edges are misoriented and start to fix them. What can i do to get faster at this as well as my EOline?
 

OreKehStrah

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Joined
May 24, 2019
Messages
710
Im giving ZZ a shot to see if i can catch up to what i average with cfop and if i can surpass my avg. Im trying to get faster at EO but it takes a while for me to recognize how many edges are misoriented and start to fix them. What can i do to get faster at this as well as my EOline?
Eventually recognizing EO will get faster and faster until it's second nature. Over time I was able to go from planning EO from one fixed orientation to doing fully color neutral ZZ. For now, just focus on inspecting and planning an EO solution and then do the line after. For two-handed solving, it's better to solve the cross instead of the line though. You should join the ZZ Method Solvers Discord server if you use the platform. We have lots of people who will gladly help you out!
 

Yuzuru0925

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Aug 17, 2020
Messages
16
Location
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Eventually recognizing EO will get faster and faster until it's second nature. Over time I was able to go from planning EO from one fixed orientation to doing fully color neutral ZZ. For now, just focus on inspecting and planning an EO solution and then do the line after. For two-handed solving, it's better to solve the cross instead of the line though. You should join the ZZ Method Solvers Discord server if you use the platform. We have lots of people who will gladly help you out!
could i get the link :)
 

hellocubers

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Jul 20, 2021
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ZZ EO help
My progression thread might be based on roux, But I haven't seen ZZ's potential. (maybe becuase i haven't even done an ao5 with it) And EO is the hardest part. Help please? Thanks.
 

PapaSmurf

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What EO does is reduce the cube to <RULDF2B2>, as you probably already know. The way you are gonna transform a good edge to a bad edge and vice versa is by breaking that, so commonly done with F, F', B, B'. Doing one of those will flip all the edges on that face, so we need to figure out a) how to identify the edges and b) how to solve them. Solving them is quite easy. If you have 4,8 or 12 egdes you put 4 on F or B (using nonF/B moves) then do one of those turns to flip 4. Repeat until you've done them all. If you have 2, 6 or 10 moves you need to get to a state where you have 4 or 8 (or 12, but don't do that) bad edges. To do this, if you have 2, put one of them on F or B then turn F or B. Now you've made 1 good and 3 bad, so that means you have 4 bad edges in total. For 6 bad edges, you can either do 4 and 2 or 3 then 4 (think about how 3 then 4 would work). For 10, you do 4 and 6.

To actually identify a bad edge, you can do it a few ways. The most intuitive way is to see if that edge can be solved with <RULDB2F2>, but that takes a lot of time. The way I'd recommend is this:
  1. Look at the U face.
  2. Check an edge: is it an E slice edge or a U/D edge?
    • If it's a U/D edge, it is good if the U/D colour is facing you.
    • If it's an E slice edge, it is good if the F/B colour is facing you.
  3. Repeat for F (only looking at the edges on the E slice), D and B (only looking at the edges that are on the E slice).

An easy shortcut is that if the L/R edge is facing you, it is bad.

Now do a lot of solves until this becomes automatic. I would recommend learning how to recognise a second axis asap (so normally people start with blue/green on F, then orange/red on F).

Some tricks to be more CN:
  • a z roatation doesn't affect EO (z*<RULDF2B2> = <DRULF2B2> which is just the first set reordered) -> the axis only depends on your F/B colours.
  • double rotations don't affect EO (as they preserve your F/B colours, just switching them around).
  • Instead of inspecting all three EOs, choosing the best, then finding the best cross on that colour, just find a good looking cross then inspect the 2 EOs that apply to it.

Beyond this, just do a lot of solves and enjoy ZZ! It's a bit more inspection heavy than Roux and CFOP, but it's a really fun method imo and you'll have a great time using it. Also, use EOCross for TH.
 

tsmosher

Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2020
Messages
649
My progression thread might be based on roux, But I haven't seen ZZ's potential. (maybe becuase i haven't even done an ao5 with it) And EO is the hardest part. Help please? Thanks.

So, I can tell you how I generally spot EO. (I do CN ZZ for fun.)

U/D colors are your dominant colors. If you see these colors on the oriented side of any edge, that is a good edge. Conversely, if you see these colors on the misoriented side of any edge, that is a bad edge.

L/R colors are your submissive colors. If you see these colors on the oriented side of any edge, that is a bad edge. Conversely, if you see these colors on the misoriented side of any edge, that is a good edge.

These rules alone should enable you to determine an edge's orientation by looking at only one side (most of the time). Things get tricky when you come across F/B colors because those don't have hard-and-fast rules. (It depends if that edge is a U/D edge or a belt edge.)

Personally, I bee line my pieces to F/B in the quickest way(s) possible, resolving EO in the shortest way I see. Then I predict/examine what comes out of that to influence Cross. (But I am definitely more of an EO+Cross solver vs. an EOCross solver.) One of the ZZ guys can give you much better advice around influencing Cross during EO. :)

Also, a trick I do to determine the best orientation. Count the number of edges showing the L/R color on the oriented side (i.e. the number of obvious bad edges). This only gives you a rough estimate, but you can use this to choose between green front/orange front/any other orientation if you choose to be CN.
 

V Achyuthan

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Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
169
I currently average high 11 to mid-12s with ZZ. the problem is I can't find video tutorials to improve in EO cross and to become sub-11 / sub-10 and also any strategy to learn full ZBLL (I currently know 3 complete sets of U ZBLL, 3 complete sets of T ZBLL and some 2 gen cases in H and Pi). If anyone has any suggestions or tips please let me know. really looking forward to improve with ZZ.
Thank you
 
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