[Help Thread] FMC Discussion

[mista]

L D2 U2 L U2 R2 U2 B2 R U2 F D' U B D' B' L2 D' U2

U2 F' L' F' U L' B L2 B2 (9 to 11E)

Skeleton: U2 F' L' F' U L' B ^ L2 B2
^=R U2 D2 L F2 B2 L2 (7-4)

Skeleton: U2 F' L' F' U L' * B R U2 D2 L F2
*=R U2 D2 L' F L U2 D2 R' B' (10-9)

Skeleton: U2 F' L' F' U L' & R U2 D2 L' F L2 F2
&=D R U2 D2 L' D' L U2 D2 R' (10-8)

Skeleton: U2 F' @ L' F' U L' D R U2 D2 L' D' F L2 F2
@=U2 D2 B' U2 D2 F (6-0)

Skeleton: U2 F' % U2 D2 B' D2 U2 F L' F' U L' D R U2 D2 L' D' F L2 F2
%=F' D2 F U2 D2 B' D2 B U2 D2 (10-9)

Final Solution: U2 F2 D2 F U2 D2 B' U2 F L' F' U L' D R U2 D2 L' D' F L2 F2 (22 moves)

Interesting... Requires a lot of focus on insertions.
What do you think about this method?

 

[WoowyBaby]

L D2 U2 L U2 R2 U2 B2 R U2 F D' U B D' B' L2 D' U2

U2 F' L' F' U L' B L2 B2 (9 to 11E)

Skeleton: U2 F' L' F' U L' B ^ L2 B2
^=R U2 D2 L F2 B2 L2 (7-4)

Skeleton: U2 F' L' F' U L' * B R U2 D2 L F2
*=R U2 D2 L' F L U2 D2 R' B' (10-9)

Skeleton: U2 F' L' F' U L' & R U2 D2 L' F L2 F2
&=D R U2 D2 L' D' L U2 D2 R' (10-8)

Skeleton: U2 F' @ L' F' U L' D R U2 D2 L' D' F L2 F2
@=U2 D2 B' U2 D2 F (6-0)

Skeleton: U2 F' % U2 D2 B' D2 U2 F L' F' U L' D R U2 D2 L' D' F L2 F2
%=F' D2 F U2 D2 B' D2 B U2 D2 (10-9)

Final Solution: U2 F2 D2 F U2 D2 B' U2 F L' F' U L' D R U2 D2 L' D' F L2 F2 (22 moves)

Interesting... Requires a lot of focus on insertions.
What do you think about this method?

It seems okay, but it is sightly worse than doing edges first and then doing 4 or even just 3 corner comms as insertions.

Edges first makes it so you don't need to memorize any special algs, beacuse you can always find optimal 8c or 7c with only corner commutators, so it is much simpler, so it is easier to get closer to optimal insertions than corners first.
And also just a random thing, you can use just slices to solve edges too.

Also, please note when you used Insertion Finder, because I am certain without a doubt that you did there. It's okay just for a simple demonstration, but please do not do this in a real attempt (I have also seen you use it a couple times in the 3x3 example solve thread, but I know there's not really anything wrong with that so don't worry )

Perhaps I will give this a shot and see how I'll do, although probably not well :/ I like edges-first more

Although, I know this can be a good way of solving because there have been very, very good FMCer's that have done this frequently, but I do not recall their names I'm sorry, but I know some have gotten great results with corners first. I'm just lazy lmao.

 

[trangium]

My try at corners first:

Scramble: R' U' F D' F2 L2 U' B2 L2 B2 D2 B2 U' L' B R' B F' L' B2 D' B2 R U R' U' F (fewest-moves.info contest 190)
Solution: U D F2 B2 U' R D2 L' U B D' F B' L B' L2 F L2 R' D F' D' L (23 HTM)

U L U // corner layer (3/3)
U R' U' L U R U' L' // CLL (8-1/10)
B // solve corners (1/11)
z' y' // solve corners relative to scrambling orientation, leave 5e5e6x (0/11)

U L U2 R' U' L U [1] R U' L' B z' y'
[1] = U D' y' // 8e2x4x (2-1/12)

U L U2 R' [2] U' L U2 D' y' R U' L' B z' y'
[2] = U' D y // 5e1e6x (2-1/13)

U L U2 R' U2 D y L U2 D' y' R [3] U' L' B z' y'
[3] = R' L x // 6e4x (2-2/13)

U [4] L U2 R' U2 D y L U2 D' y' L x U' L' B z' y'
[4] = D F2 B2 z2 D' // 4e4x (4/17)

U D F2 B2 z2 D' L U2 R' D [5] U2 y L U2 D' y' L x U' L' B z' y'
[5] = B U' F B' z' U B' // Solved, was not expecting to get this lucky (6/23)

 

[WoowyBaby]

~Cale Schoon's 21.00 FMC World Record Mean~

Spoiler

Copied from: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mHLEa9brUp5kLMPcD14fnQfa4PMJaouRBSPRgqtFY2Y/edit
Check out the full document above that includes Cale's written comments as well.

Spoiler: #1 - 23

Scramble: R' U' F D' B2 R2 D U2 R2 U B2 R' U' B2 F' L' F2 U' B2 F2 R' B2 U' R' U' F

L2 F // EO
D R2 B2 D' R' // Domino in 7
F2 // pairs
B2 R2 // sq + more pairs
D // pseudo 223
(B2 D' F2) // 223 with inserted B2
(U2) // 15 to 3e3c + E slice

L2 F D R2 B2 D' R' @ F2 B2 R2 D U2 F2 D B2
@ = R2 U' ^ R2 // to J perm + E slice
^ = U L2 F2 U F2 U' F2 D F2 D' L2 // J perm

L2 F D R2 B2 D' R L2 F2 U F2 U' F2 D F2 D' [L2 R2 F2 B2 R2] D U2 F2 D B2
Replace brackets with F2 B2 L2

L2 F D R2 B2 D' R L2 F2 U F2 U' F2 D F2 D' ^ F2 B2 L2 D U2 @ F2 D B2
@ = E
^ = E' // solve E slice

Solution: L2 F D R2 B2 D' R L2 F2 U F2 U' F2 D F2 U' R2 L2 F2 U' F2 D B2 (23)

Spoiler: #2 - 18

Scramble: R' U' F U2 B D2 B F2 R2 F D2 B D' B U F2 D' R' F2 U2 R' F' R' U' F

F D' // sq
(F' D B F2 L') // 223
B U' B // EO
(U' B2) // sq
(L U L' U B2 U) // wth finish

Solution: F D' B U' B U' B2 U' L U' L' B2 U L F2 B' D' F (18)

Spoiler: #3 - 22

Scramble: R' U' F R2 U2 B' D2 L2 B L2 U2 B' D' F' L' B F2 D L R B2 F2 R' U' F

L' B R' U F' // EO
(D2 F2 L2 U' L') // Domino
(D' R2 U2 D F2 U' D2) // 17 to 3e

L' B R' U F' D2 U F2 D' U2 R2 D @ L U L2 F2 D2
@ = D2 B F' R2 F B'

Solution: L' B R' U F' D2 U F2 D' U2 R2 D' B F' R2 F B' L U L2 F2 D2 (22)

Amazing job Cale! Such a big jump in the mean record, I can hardly believe this! Nice personal best single too!

 

[Tommy Kiprillis]

22.67 OcR mean solutions. #4WR

25, 20, 23 = 22.67

1: R' U' F D2 F2 D2 U2 R D2 L' R2 F2 R2 B2 F' L2 D' R F U' R' D L F' R' U' F

25

(U' B) L' D F' // EO
L // 2 squares
U D2 (D') // 223
D' L D L F2 U L' U' // 16 to 2c2c

L' D F' L U D L ^ D L F2 U L' U' D B' U

^ - L U2 R' D2 B2 R U2 L' D2 F2 (25)

Comment: Optimal feasible insertions, IF gives 24 but it does an 8-6 at the end to create a different 2c2c but it's in 18, giving 11-5 on a H Perm. I also had a 10 move DR on this scramble that is +13 optimal but it doesn't seem feasible whatsoever.

Solution: L' D F' L U D L2 U2 R' D2 B2 R U2 L' D2 F2 D L F2 U L' U' D B' U (25)

2: R' U' F L2 R B2 L D2 F2 U2 L2 R' D' F2 R U L' F R' B' L U' F2 R' U' F

20

U2 D' F' D // EO w/ inserted U2
B U2 B L // DR (8)
D2 F' B' L2 ^ B L2 B L2 // 16 to 3e3e

^ - U2 D2 F' U2 D2 B (21)

U2 D' F' D B U2 B L D2 F' B' ^ L2 U2 D2 F' U2 D2 B2 L2 B # L2

^ - F' B z
# - B' Bw (20)

Comment: Optimal after DR is + 11 if you make the L an L'. It seems somewhat feasible using HTR, despite the DR already being DR-2e4c (as optimal adds two moves to create HTR-4e4c then switches).

Solution: U2 D' F' D B U2 B L D2 F2 z L2 U2 D2 F' U2 D2 B2 L2 Bw L2 (20)

3: R' U' F L' R' B2 R2 F2 D2 B2 L' U2 R2 U' L' B F2 R2 U' L2 B L' F2 R' U' F

23

R (B2 D' F R) // EO
(B D2 B2 R2 B U') // DR (11)
(L2 D2) // lol what
(F' L2 D2 B2 R2 B' R2 B R2 B') // Finish (23)

Solution: R B R2 B' R2 B R2 B2 D2 L2 F D2 L2 U B' R2 B2 D2 B' R' F' D B2 (23)

Comment: I found this about 20 minutes in. There's +5 moves to HTR if you switch after DR but I didn't see it because I outright forgot about checking HTR-6e4c.

 

[guusrs]

~Cale Schoon's 21.00 FMC World Record Mean~

Spoiler

Copied from: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mHLEa9brUp5kLMPcD14fnQfa4PMJaouRBSPRgqtFY2Y/edit
Check out the full document above that includes Cale's written comments as well.

Spoiler: #1 - 23

Scramble: R' U' F D' B2 R2 D U2 R2 U B2 R' U' B2 F' L' F2 U' B2 F2 R' B2 U' R' U' F

L2 F // EO
D R2 B2 D' R' // Domino in 7
F2 // pairs
B2 R2 // sq + more pairs
D // pseudo 223
(B2 D' F2) // 223 with inserted B2
(U2) // 15 to 3e3c + E slice

L2 F D R2 B2 D' R' @ F2 B2 R2 D U2 F2 D B2
@ = R2 U' ^ R2 // to J perm + E slice
^ = U L2 F2 U F2 U' F2 D F2 D' L2 // J perm

L2 F D R2 B2 D' R L2 F2 U F2 U' F2 D F2 D' [L2 R2 F2 B2 R2] D U2 F2 D B2
Replace brackets with F2 B2 L2

L2 F D R2 B2 D' R L2 F2 U F2 U' F2 D F2 D' ^ F2 B2 L2 D U2 @ F2 D B2
@ = E
^ = E' // solve E slice

Solution: L2 F D R2 B2 D' R L2 F2 U F2 U' F2 D F2 U' R2 L2 F2 U' F2 D B2 (23)

Spoiler: #2 - 18

Scramble: R' U' F U2 B D2 B F2 R2 F D2 B D' B U F2 D' R' F2 U2 R' F' R' U' F

F D' // sq
(F' D B F2 L') // 223
B U' B // EO
(U' B2) // sq
(L U L' U B2 U) // wth finish

Solution: F D' B U' B U' B2 U' L U' L' B2 U L F2 B' D' F (18)

Spoiler: #3 - 22

Scramble: R' U' F R2 U2 B' D2 L2 B L2 U2 B' D' F' L' B F2 D L R B2 F2 R' U' F

L' B R' U F' // EO
(D2 F2 L2 U' L') // Domino
(D' R2 U2 D F2 U' D2) // 17 to 3e

L' B R' U F' D2 U F2 D' U2 R2 D @ L U L2 F2 D2
@ = D2 B F' R2 F B'

Solution: L' B R' U F' D2 U F2 D' U2 R2 D' B F' R2 F B' L U L2 F2 D2 (22)

Amazing job Cale! Such a big jump in the mean record, I can hardly believe this! Nice personal best single too!

Congratz Cale!
Good to see you can mix old techniques (NISS) and new techniques (DR) perfectly

 

[Robert-Y]

Hello, I am running a FMC tournament (mostly battle royale style). If you are interested in participating, please join this facebook group and you'll easily find my posts with details on this tournament. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1422080808012720/

So far we have 20 participants, and I'm hoping to boost this to 50+

 

[WoowyBaby]

Wow! An FMC tournament would be so much fun! I'll be sure to join, thank you for posting this on the SS forums.

 

[xyzzy]

Superflip with an empty skeleton and two insertions:

Skeleton: @ #
@ = D L R F B U D L R F B U // flip eight edges (12/12)
# = M2 [M2 F2 M' F2, U'] M2 // flip the other four edges (14/26)

Final solution (26): D L R F B U D L R F B U F2 L R' D2 F' D2 L' R F2 L2 R2 D L2 R2

Spent some nonzero amount of time trying (and failing) slicey shenanigans for the 4-flip.

 

[mista]

Is this ZZ data true?


ZZ METHOD
Step 1 – EOline
max. 9
avg. 6.127

Step 2 – ZZF2L
max.
<R,U,L> 13
<U,D,R,L> 12
<U,D,R,L,F2,B2> 11
avg.
<R,U,L> 9.6922
<U,D,R,L> 9.0241
<U,D,R,L,F2,B2> 8.4048

Step 3 – LL (ZBLL)
max. 15
avg. 12.08

Overall movecount:

max. 9 + 11 + 15 = 35 + AUF
avg. 6.127 + 8.4048 + 12.08 = 26.6118 + AUF

 

[Deleted member 51471]

Is this ZZ data true?


ZZ METHOD
Step 1 – EOline
max. 9
avg. 6.127

Step 2 – ZZF2L
max.
<R,U,L> 13
<U,D,R,L> 12
<U,D,R,L,F2,B2> 11
avg.
<R,U,L> 9.6922
<U,D,R,L> 9.0241
<U,D,R,L,F2,B2> 8.4048

Step 3 – LL (ZBLL)
max. 15
avg. 12.08

Overall movecount:

max. 9 + 11 + 15 = 35 + AUF
avg. 6.127 + 8.4048 + 12.08 = 26.6118 + AUF

I dunno man, getting a 13 move ZZF2L is super rare and lucky.

 

[brododragon]

How should I approach FMC. In other words, what order should I learn what from where?

 

[Cubinwitdapizza]

How should I approach FMC. In other words, what order should I learn what from where?

Block building, the commutators, NISS, insertions, DR, slicy shenanigans? If you want to get really good learn DR and slicy but if you just want a basic understanding g, the first 4

 

[WoowyBaby]

Is this ZZ data true?


ZZ METHOD
Step 1 – EOline
max. 9
avg. 6.127

Step 2 – ZZF2L
max.
<R,U,L> 13
<U,D,R,L> 12
<U,D,R,L,F2,B2> 11
avg.
<R,U,L> 9.6922
<U,D,R,L> 9.0241
<U,D,R,L,F2,B2> 8.4048

Step 3 – LL (ZBLL)
max. 15
avg. 12.08

Overall movecount:

max. 9 + 11 + 15 = 35 + AUF
avg. 6.127 + 8.4048 + 12.08 = 26.6118 + AUF

ZZF2L doesn’t take 8.4 moves on average to solve optimally.
I can prove this wrong with an analysis if you want.

Edit: Perhaps did you grab the average left block movecount in ZZ from somewhere instead of both blocks/all of F2L? That might explain it.

You are correct on the EOline and ZBLL average numbers of 6.13 and 12.08. Good job.

Although, in realistic speedsolves, I’d say they take ~8 and ~15 moves respectively.
I’m not sure if you are concerned about speedsolves here though.

 

[xyzzy]

5×5×5 FMC UWR(?) single, 127 moves.

I knew Cale's 147 listed on the wiki would be very easy to beat—I already had a 146 two years ago (with 37 moves 3×3×3 stage), so the 147 technically wasn't even UWR. Hitting 55-60 moves for centres and edge pairing (each) in a linear solve is also pretty easy, so realistically I was aiming for 140-ish moves (55+55+30=140). I set a 2.5-hour time limit before I started, but I ended it after about 1:45 because I got bored.

126 moves now. (Submitted this for the All WCA puzzles FMC competition.)

Spoiler

scramble:
Lw2 R2 D2 U2 Bw' U2 R' Lw L' F Rw' D2 Dw2 Lw' D' L' B' Rw' R Lw Uw' Rw2 R2 U' L' Rw2 F2 Bw Uw2 Dw F' D' U' R2 Bw R D' Rw' D' B2 Bw2 Lw2 B2 F2 L Dw F2 Bw D2 Dw2 B' Fw Uw2 B' L2 U' B' L2 Fw2 B

Final solution (126):

R' Uw' F' L' Dw2 B' Uw L Uw
Dw F' Dw2 F2 Dw
Fw2 Rw' F Rw U' Bw'
D' Fw2 D2 Fw Rw F2 Rw'
D' Fw' R U' Bw' D' Fw2 U' D Bw'
Fw' U' Fw U2 Fw2
L' Bw' U2 Fw L' Bw L

Bw L F L' Bw' L B L'
Fw2 D F D' Fw
Dw' R' D2 R Dw
U2 D2 B Lw2 Rw2 B2 Lw2 Rw2
L2 Bw D F' R' D' R Bw'
F Uw' L' U2 L Uw
Bw2 B R B' R' Bw2

B' R' B' D2 B R' F R B' R2
F' R2 F R2 F L F' R' F L'
D R' D' F2 D R' U L B L
B

-----

// centres (49)
R' Uw' F' L' Dw2 B' Uw L Uw // blue
Dw F' Dw2 F2 Dw
Fw2 Rw' F Rw U' Bw'
D' Fw2 D2 Fw Rw F2 Rw' // green
D' Fw' R U' Bw' D' Fw2 U' D Bw'
Fw' U' Fw U2 Fw2 // red
L' Bw' U2 Fw L' Bw L // comm magic

// edge pairing (46)
Bw L F L' Bw' L B L' // 3 wings
Fw2 D F D' Fw // 7 wings
Dw' R' D2 R Dw // 9 wings
U2 D2 B Lw2 Rw2 B2 Lw2 Rw2 // 15 wings
L2 Bw D F' R' D' R Bw' // 19 wings
F Uw' L' U2 L Uw // 21 wings
Bw2 B R B' R' Bw2 // 24 wings

// 333 (31)
B' R' B' D2 B R' F R B' R2
F' R2 F R2 F L F' R' F L'
D R' D' F2 D R' U L B L
B

333:
(B' L' B' L' U' D') B' R' B' D2 // 223 (10/10)
(D R D' F2 D R D' F') // pF2L-corner (8-2/16)
B R' F R B' R2 F' R2 F R // edges; ab3c (10/26)
R F L F' R' F L' F' // corners (8-3/31)

Reduction was 6 moves better than my previous 127-move attempt (95 versus 101), but threebythree was 5 moves worse (31 versus 26). Also found a one-move-shorter reduction (94 moves) but I was stuck on the threebythree for that (27 to 3c, 2 moves cancelling on the insertion, 33 moves total).

 

[mista]

ZZF2L doesn’t take 8.4 moves on average to solve optimally.
I can prove this wrong with an analysis if you want.

I asked this question based on ZZ, because I had such data, but this was not the subject of my search. I just wanted to know how you would argue with your sentence. I guess you do the analysis using Kociemba Algorithm, yet I am not sure.

Could you show me correct values of average ZZF2L optimal solution (and mostly how you find them) instead of fake my data (however it is interesting too).

I will be thankful.

 

[asacuber]

cubers.io scramble 2, couldnt find much. help?

Spoiler

R' U' F U L2 R2 U F2 U' L2 D F2 R2 U R' B' L2 U B L2 F D2 U' L' R' U' F

 

[trangium]

cubers.io scramble 2, couldnt find much. help?

R' U' F U L2 R2 U F2 U' L2 D F2 R2 U R' B' L2 U B L2 F D2 U' L' R' U' F

Spoiler

D' B' R U // EO (4/4)
B R2 B // 2x2x2 (3/7)
B' L B D2 L2 D2 L // 7c (7-2/12)
Optimal 26

 

[asacuber]

Spoiler

D' B' R U // EO (4/4)
B R2 B // 2x2x2 (3/7)
B' L B D2 L2 D2 L // 7c (7-2/12)
Optimal 26

Spoiler

thanks! i found a 13 to 7c from the same start but insertions were really bad for that one.

and sorry if im spamming the thread with my queries, but weekly comp scr 1:

Spoiler

R' U' F B2 L' R B2 U2 L D2 R' F2 D2 L2 D' L2 D B F D' L2 F L2 R' U' F
i had a hard time with this, however i found:
U R L' B' D' L U2 F2 U2//EO and blocks
and i would also appreeciate it if someone could tell me how to proceed from this CO, as im very inexperienced in that stuff
(L B L')/(R B R')//CO

 

[WoowyBaby]

R' U' F B2 L' R B2 U2 L D2 R' F2 D2 L2 D' L2 D B F D' L2 F L2 R' U' F
i had a hard time with this, however i found:
U R L' B' D' L U2 F2 U2//EO and blocks
and i would also appreeciate it if someone could tell me how to proceed from this CO, as im very inexperienced in that stuff
(L B L')/(R B R')//CO

U R L' B' D' L U2 F2 U2 // EO + Blocks (9)
(L2 F B * R B2 U2 B R2 B R') // All But 3C (19)
*= (B' D' B U B' D B U') (8-2=6/25) All Done

Final Solution: U R L' B' D' L U2 F2 U2 R B' R2 B' U2 B2 R' U B' D' B U' B' D F' L2 (25)

(L B L') // CO
(B2 D R) // EO
(U R2 L2 U' B) // Domino in 11

Optimal is +14, giving 25 in total. CE says: L2 U2 B2 D' B2 R2 D2 L2 D' L2 U R2 U' L2 [14]