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[Help Thread] Colour Neutrality Discussion

Seanliu

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
330
YouTube
Cubing4Taiwan
I gave you the best help of anyone here in this thread. It's a big bad world out there. Learn to do things for yourself or you're in trouble.
*Thinks about it* That I have realised long ago. I have also realised that cubers are a nice bunch of nice people.
 

gewinnste

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
18
It's funny how people are so crazy about getting CN, especially if they don't even do 2LLL. While full OLL gives you an undoubted advantage (be it only 2s or so sub 20, but, hey, that's actually a lot btw), it seems CN does not! All you can read and hear is that after so and so much time people got down to the same times they had before with a fixed cross (if at all).

So Feliks is CN, but e.g. Mats and most other top cubers are not. Plus, nobody knows how good Feliks would be, had he been on fixed cross or biCN all along. And nobody knows how good anybody would be who started cubing CN (which everybody rightfully advocates since it's so hard to switch later) had they started and stayed on fixed cross color or biCN. And applying proper scientific method for this case by comparing the performances of CN and non-full-CN cuber populations (which are large enough to draw statistically meaningful conclusions meanwhile) shows there is no detectable difference.

And then there's esoteric babble like "becoming CN is a whole new world and you will start a whole new cubing career" and the like. Sounds like desperate salesman talk when arguments and supporting data are missing.

It may be fun but, alas, it seems to not yield better times so why bother (assuming every speedcuber's main goal is to get faster - which, by definition, should be the case).

Theoretically or if done by a machine, color neutrality would give a time advantage (but a very small one, much smaller than 1 look vs. 2 look OLL) but it seems that other factors eliminate that advantage in humans - most likely a slightly slower recognition time in F2L and less available inspection time after choosing the cross color.

Flame away guys!
 

cashis

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
907
Location
louisiana
Hi. I average around 19-25 seconds and solve on different colors when I can. White/yellow seems the fastest for me right now - with recognition of F2L and cross pieces - but with other colors, I usually struggle with finding pieces. I find myself pausing more often with other colors but the times are about 2-3 seconds slower overall. The difference is not that much, but should 1. Continue doing this and gradually get faster at recognition 2. Work on each individual color until they are all comfortable or 3. Just stop doing that. Only do white/yellow cross.

Also one more thing which isn't color-neutral related. I can look ahead decently, but should I turn slowly in timed solves and look ahead or continue to spam TPS with no look ahead? I practice look ahead with slow turning.
What youre doing right now is fine. one thing you could do is stay away from your "home" color(s) and just solve on everything else. I'm assuming youre most comfortable with white right now, so just stay away from it.
I know for me it was so hard to stop myself from doing white cross I had to replace it with another color just sp my brain wouldnt default to it.
sounds like that isn't necessary for you l, but yeah, just try to limit the amount of solves you do on the colors youre already comfortable on
 

Nukenin16

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
8
Color Neutrality

Hello! I would just like to know if they were people under 12 seconds averagely who weren't color neutral. I'm asking this because I'm kinda color neutral but when I timed myself I was always around 6 seconds faster when cross was on white(fridrich method) and on all the videos I see all people under like 15 were color neutral. So if I want to be at this stage do I need to be fully color neutral or white is ok? Thanks in advance for the answers :)
 

Seanliu

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
330
YouTube
Cubing4Taiwan
CN does help, but you don't NEED to be CN to reach sub-15. As a person who switched when I was 20 sec, I can firmly tell you: practice. It's like when you were doing cross on bottom; That first time you did an F2L pair. It is worth it in the end.
 

lerenard

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
275
Location
Tennessee
I thought most super fast people weren't CN... Either way, most would say it does improve your times if you can stick with it, but it's not a huge deal if you don't wanna be either. I know sometimes it's information overload during those 15 seconds when I have so many different ways I could start, but I don't always make a cross first, so that may be part of it.
 

JemFish

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
338
Location
Sydney, Australia
Hey people,

Just wondering how you colour-neutral solvers get used to your colour orientation. I've been trying to become colour-neutral, and before this I made a white/yellow cross. I remember the acronym BOG-R which stands for blue, orange, green, and red, clockwise in relation to white on the D face. For yellow, it's just BoRGO.

Having to make up acronyms for all colour crosses will be a pain, but before I do that, I want to see if anyone else has other ideas for getting used to colour-neutral orientations.

~ JemFish
 

cmhardw

Premium Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
4,106
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
WCA
2003HARD01
Hey people,

Just wondering how you colour-neutral solvers get used to your colour orientation. I've been trying to become colour-neutral, and before this I made a white/yellow cross. I remember the acronym BOG-R which stands for blue, orange, green, and red, clockwise in relation to white on the D face. For yellow, it's just BoRGO.

Having to make up acronyms for all colour crosses will be a pain, but before I do that, I want to see if anyone else has other ideas for getting used to colour-neutral orientations.

~ JemFish
I don't think it's necessary to have your color scheme memorized per se. You can always use the centers as a reference to be sure.

On 4x4 it is necessary to know your color scheme, so 4x4 techniques would work if you want to have your color scheme memorized. Here is how I memorize my color scheme.
 

lerenard

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
275
Location
Tennessee
Hey people,

Just wondering how you colour-neutral solvers get used to your colour orientation. I've been trying to become colour-neutral, and before this I made a white/yellow cross. I remember the acronym BOG-R which stands for blue, orange, green, and red, clockwise in relation to white on the D face. For yellow, it's just BoRGO.

Having to make up acronyms for all colour crosses will be a pain, but before I do that, I want to see if anyone else has other ideas for getting used to colour-neutral orientations.

~ JemFish
Even with roux, I don't see why people say you need to "know your color scheme."
Why does knowing this help you make a cross?
I do know mine, but it's only ever useful in 4x4, and it takes me way too long to remember, which is why Yau is annoying me right now. FYI I'm not even color neutral for Yau.
 

Hypocrism

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Messages
316
WCA
2009ADLA01
Even with roux, I don't see why people say you need to "know your color scheme."
Why does knowing this help you make a cross?
I do know mine, but it's only ever useful in 4x4, and it takes me way too long to remember, which is why Yau is annoying me right now. FYI I'm not even color neutral for Yau.
If you don't know the colour scheme well, you have to think about (/ look based on the centers) where the cross pieces need to go. And more importantly you also need to think about (/ look based on the centers) where the pairs go. If you know your colour scheme you can more instantly see cross solutions and not need to go through in your head thinking "Is each piece going to end up in the right place?" and it also helps your F2L smoothness because you don't need to check which slot you have to aim for - effectively reducing your look count by up to 4.

For me, the most efficient way to memorize the colour scheme (and it happens eventually for everybody, passively) is to know which F2L colours are opposites (very easy) and to know just one relation (for me until I became dual neutral, it was "blue to the left of red"). The others can be derived from that one statement and knowledge of the opposites. Then I solve on that colour (trying not to look at the centers to confirm my cross solutions or F2L solves). Then with the amount of repetition you do you rather quickly learn all 4 relations without having to think about it.
 
Last edited:

Hypocrism

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Messages
316
WCA
2009ADLA01
Hey people,

Just wondering how you colour-neutral solvers get used to your colour orientation. I've been trying to become colour-neutral, and before this I made a white/yellow cross. I remember the acronym BOG-R which stands for blue, orange, green, and red, clockwise in relation to white on the D face. For yellow, it's just BoRGO.

Having to make up acronyms for all colour crosses will be a pain, but before I do that, I want to see if anyone else has other ideas for getting used to colour-neutral orientations.

~ JemFish
See my above post - I think you'll find this a better way to learn the colour schemes. Definitely don't memorize acronyms, I think that will make your colour neutral technique become lazy and you will take longer to speed up your F2L.
 

JemFish

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
338
Location
Sydney, Australia
I don't think it's necessary to have your color scheme memorized per se. You can always use the centers as a reference to be sure.

On 4x4 it is necessary to know your color scheme, so 4x4 techniques would work if you want to have your color scheme memorized. Here is how I memorize my color scheme.
I see. I guess I'll learn it the Hardwick (not the hard) way and practise until I get used to it.

If you don't know the colour scheme well, you have to think about (/ look based on the centers) where the cross pieces need to go. And more importantly you also need to think about (/ look based on the centers) where the pairs go. If you know your colour scheme you can more instantly see cross solutions and not need to go through in your head thinking "Is each piece going to end up in the right place?" and it also helps your F2L smoothness because you don't need to check which slot you have to aim for - effectively reducing your look count by up to 4.

For me, the most efficient way to memorize the colour scheme (and it happens eventually for everybody, passively) is to know which F2L colours are opposites (very easy) and to know just one relation (for me until I became dual neutral, it was "blue to the left of red"). The others can be derived from that one statement and knowledge of the opposites. Then I solve on that colour (trying not to look at the centers to confirm my cross solutions or F2L solves). Then with the amount of repetition you do you rather quickly learn all 4 relations without having to think about it.
OK, I'll try that.
 
Last edited:

lerenard

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
275
Location
Tennessee
If you don't know the colour scheme well, you have to think about (/ look based on the centers) where the cross pieces need to go. And more importantly you also need to think about (/ look based on the centers) where the pairs go. If you know your colour scheme you can more instantly see cross solutions and not need to go through in your head thinking "Is each piece going to end up in the right place?" and it also helps your F2L smoothness because you don't need to check which slot you have to aim for - effectively reducing your look count by up to 4.

For me, the most efficient way to memorize the colour scheme (and it happens eventually for everybody, passively) is to know which F2L colours are opposites (very easy) and to know just one relation (for me until I became dual neutral, it was "blue to the left of red"). The others can be derived from that one statement and knowledge of the opposites. Then I solve on that colour (trying not to look at the centers to confirm my cross solutions or F2L solves). Then with the amount of repetition you do you rather quickly learn all 4 relations without having to think about it.
Yeah I just look at the centers. Maybe that would help me in 4x4 if I would try that though...
 

teller

REAL Fingertricks!
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Messages
1,035
Location
West Virginia
WCA
2010COAT01
YouTube
TellerWest
Hey people,

Just wondering how you colour-neutral solvers get used to your colour orientation. I've been trying to become colour-neutral, and before this I made a white/yellow cross. I remember the acronym BOG-R which stands for blue, orange, green, and red, clockwise in relation to white on the D face. For yellow, it's just BoRGO.

Having to make up acronyms for all colour crosses will be a pain, but before I do that, I want to see if anyone else has other ideas for getting used to colour-neutral orientations.

~ JemFish
I feel strongly that you should know these relationships fluently. I made this little app awhile back when I wanted to automatize this knowledge; it helped:

CN Cross Trainer
 

NewCuber000

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
429
Location
Atlantic Canada
WCA
2014BOUD01
I'm Sub-15 with white cross only, and I've been on and off experimenting with color neutrality for a couple months now... not really practicing all that much, but keeping my color neutral times decent for when I start seriously practicing it. As of now my color neutral average is Sub-25. I've only heard of a couple Sub-15 cubers switch successfully though, which is kind of discouraging. At this point though, how fast do you guys think I should be able to get down to my regular 3x3 times, and at this level how should I go about it? Because I know it's way easier for lets say a 45 second solver to switch than a 15 second solver..
Also, can anyone direct me to a site or video that shows you how to recognize each F2L pair color neural? It'd make this whole process much faster. Thanks!
 

LisztNZ

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2014
Messages
5
Location
NZ
colour neutral question!

Hi,
I Practiced colour neutral last month. I average 18 with yellow/white dual cross. but colour neutral solves I avg 23 seconds. my lookahead is good on yellow white and my f2l is efficient but I can't go as fast on colour neutral, nor am i as efficient as I am on yellow white...my question is
Should I just become a yellow/white dual cross solver? I am aiming for sub 10, will being a dual colour cross solver make sub 10 hard? Do you know any sub 10 solvers who are not colour neutral?
Thanks
 
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