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The method debate thread

ZB is 45.43 moves on average
Going to copy paste this from the methods for all events thread.

5 moves for cross, and about 15 odd for ZBLL. F2L pair average should be somewhere 7-8 so I'll use 7.5. This gives us 41. Do you mean to tell me that ZBLS averages 4 moves?

And furthermore



CFOP is 55

Only top solver to be able to get these movecount on average in real solves Is Tymon Kolasinski, the pseudoslotting, blockbuilding, eo-forcing, borderline-freefop machine. And that's based off of just his reconstructed solves, which will most likely be weighted into his faster solves, which will probably use less moves.

To call CFOP's movecount 55 because one person who does a lot of freefop and a lot of ZB already averages 54 on his better solves is just straight up disingenuous.

Stop the cap.

(side note, funny to be so sure of ZB when up until 6 days ago you were hardcore on cfop)
 

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This is rather a childish way of saying ‘oh look at this, it’s 10 fewer moves than cfop so it’s automatically better! Wow’.

Theoretically speaking, it is better due to the lower movecount, but practically speaking, recognition is significantly worse, increasing ls and ll pauses. And with top cubers constantly hitting 10 tps the Zb method means that technically if you have a second or more in pauses than it is not better. It is also 700 algs, so no thanks
 
With enough practice, recognition of ZBLL is instant. Tymon can often look-ahead into ZBLL during last slot. EDMARTER can easily recognise 1LLL.
High algorithm count is not a drawback, most of the top cubers eventually end up learning big sets of algs.

ZB is indeed strong but for me CFOP is and always will be superior.
 
To call CFOP's movecount 55 because one person who does a lot of freefop and a lot of ZB already averages 54 on his better solves is just straight up disingenuous.
When I started cubing, CFOP had an agreeable movecount of 65+ with 65 being what the top cubers average. Now, of course I don't say that this couldn't get down over time as cubers got better but what makes me still angry is that in 2018, someone changed the number to 55 and it's been quoted ever since.
New F2L, OLL and PLL algs that use S Mobes and the like that popped up 2 years ago maybe brought that down a bit but nothing just makes a method that exists since the 80s and has been tested thoroughly be 10 moves more efficient.

What I am trying to say is(not specially to you) that be vary of movecount.
 
Edge control is really easy even for intermediate solvers. ZZ is straight up garbage.
Garbage, huh?

This seems to be an incredibly common remark that is made by countless young members. It has no validity and is an impulsive statement with no logical reasoning behind. If you ponder upon it any critically thinking being can obviously see that this type of thing is my bologna.

First, let's define garbage. When used as a derogatory insult this is a very strong word. It is never used to mean "not as good" or "slightly worse/inferior. It means so bad that it makes one question its existence. So bad that it deserves to be shoved into a pit of disposal so that it may be destroyed. So bad that it is so objectively and immeasurably worse that the very thought of thinking otherwise is just silly.

"Straight up" implies that there is no way this can be deflected because it is so objectively true.

Now, let's address why this statement is silly.

Something that could make a method bad would be taking an incredible amount of moves to reach a simple goal. The Chad method is garbage. It uses a ton of algorithms to do something that can be achieved more efficiently with other methods. The Chad method was created as a meme method though so it's purposely bad and a lazy point for me to make. The truth is is that it's very hard to find a method that is truly garbage because it's just too strong of a word. Even the "Sexy method" isn't garbage. For speed, maybe. But straight up? Not at all. It has taught millions of people how to solve the 3x3x3 Rubik's cube. That's a pretty reputable claim.

Now how is ZZ worse? Let's say somebody counters points made by reputable ZZ users. In theory many of their claims might seem to be obvious and they should theoretically be correct but the thing is is that not all their claims are true in practice. In reality CFOP has potential for greater creativity in a speedsolving environment. RUF really isn't that bad. Why are so many ZBLLS RUF while fewer are RUL? Why do OO cubers spam RUF and not RU? Why are top CFOP solvers so fluid while ZZers have tons of regrips and seem to suffer in transitioning? Yes, the ZZ community is a lot smaller than the CFOP community and also the Roux community but it is also full of knowledgeable people that should be incorporating the strengths of ZZ into their solve. Yet the ZZ usership remains small and we have never seen an Alex or a Sean, nor a Kian or Fahmi.

That's not to say that ZZ is worse than CFOP. I think it's a very interesting method, but we cannot write it off as straight up garbage simply because it doesn't get the same results. Very few cubers become sub-10. Even fewer become sub-8. A microscopic percentage is sub-7. Getting the right cuber to use ZZ with how unpopular it is would be a miracle and that has not been achieved yet. Most people brush off ZZ as inferior because they simply lack the knowledge. A very common error is that cubers don't like it because others don't This is true with ZZ and Petrus. Jperm has a video which I don't recommend anyone watch other than to cringe on what the best method is. He starts off by completely disregarding Petrus as a viable method which leads many cubers to believe that it is not worth studying. I have had a friend that believed Petrus was bad for that simple reason. Dylan than goes on listing a bunch of cons to ZZ but the thing is is that he's so broad and his points are either flawed, ignorant or straight up wrong. That same friend I mentioned also believed ZZ was bad. What makes this ridicules is that he had no original material to back his opinion up. He was basing his opinion of another method based solely on someone else's. He had nothing to prove. He was unprepared to discuss with someone who had a different opinion.

This problem doesn't just apply to cubing. The truth is is that opinion is just that. An opinion. what you say is not objective and you can't truthfully go around saying something is straight up garbage. Because it isn't. Even is ZZ is slightly worse that doesn't make it irrelevant and deserving to burn in hellfire for all eternity. That's just a stupid statement. Your opinion isn't better than others. You need to acknowledge that there are people pushing to get ZZ more recognition. Telling them they are pursuing a lost cause because it is invalid is not okay. One day we will get a sub-6 average officially with ZZ and what will you say? You'll have to retract your opinion because you have just been proven wrong. Your opinion is now "garbage". It doesn't hold up to truth. Even now without super great ZZ results I think a method getting sub-10 averages is good enough that is at least decent. That's more than can be said for APB and Nautilus.

No, ZZ isn't garbage, that is ridiculous claim. Any material you can garner on why ZZ is theoretically worse than ZZ will not make it a fact. It can't be proven. ZZ isn't bad, much less is it garbage.

Quack!
 
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Garbage, huh?

This seems to be an incredibly common remark that is made by countless young members. It has no validity and is an impulsive statement with no logical reasoning behind. If you ponder upon it any critically thinking being can obviously see that this type of thing is my bologna.

First, let's define garbage. When used as a derogatory insult this is a very strong word. It is never used to mean "not as good" or "slightly worse/inferior. It means so bad that it makes one question its existence. So bad that it deserves to be shoved into a pit of disposal so that it may be destroyed. So bad that it is so objectively and immeasurably worse that the very thought of thinking otherwise is just silly.

"Straight up" implies that there is no way this can be deflected because it is so objectively true.

Now, let's address why this statement is silly.

Something that could make a method bad would be taking an incredible amount of moves to reach a simple goal. The Chad method is garbage. It uses a ton of algorithms to do something that can be achieved more efficiently with other methods. The Chad method was created as a meme method though so it's purposely bad and a lazy point for me to make. The truth is is that it's very hard to find a method that is truly garbage because it's just too strong of a word. Even the "Sexy method" isn't garbage. For speed, maybe. But straight up? Not at all. It has taught millions of people how to solve the 3x3x3 Rubik's cube. That's a pretty reputable claim.

Now how is ZZ worse? Let's say somebody counters points made by reputable ZZ users. In theory many of their claims might seem to be obvious and they should theoretically be correct but the thing is is that not all their claims are true in practice. In reality CFOP has potential for greater creativity in a speedsolving environment. RUF really isn't that bad. Why are so many ZBLLS RUF while fewer are RUL? Why do OO cubers spam RUF and not RU? Why are top CFOP solvers so fluid while ZZers have tons of regrips and seem to suffer in transitioning? Yes, the ZZ community is a lot smaller than the CFOP community and also the Roux community but it is also full of knowledgeable people that should be incorporating the strengths of ZZ into their solve. Yet the ZZ usership remains small and we have never seen an Alex or a Sean, nor a Kian or Fahmi.

That's not to say that ZZ is worse than CFOP. I think it's a very interesting method, but we cannot write it off as straight up garbage simply because it doesn't get the same results. Very few cubers become sub-10. Even fewer become sub-8. A microscopic percentage is sub-7. Getting the right cuber to use ZZ with how unpopular it is would be a miracle and that has not been achieved yet. Most people brush off ZZ as inferior because they simply lack the knowledge. A very common error is that cubers don't like it because others don't This is true with ZZ and Petrus. Jperm has a video which I don't recommend anyone watch other than to cringe on what the best method is. He starts off by completely disregarding Petrus as a viable method which leads many cubers to believe that it is not worth studying. I have had a friend that believed Petrus was bad for that simple reason. Dylan than goes on listing a bunch of cons to ZZ but the thing is is that he's so broad and his points are either flawed, ignorant or straight up wrong. That same friend I mentioned also believed ZZ was bad. What makes this ridicules is that he had no original material to back his opinion up. He was basing his opinion of another method based solely on someone else's. He had nothing to prove. He was unprepared to discuss with someone who had a different opinion.

This problem doesn't just apply to cubing. The truth is is that opinion is just that. An opinion. what you say is not objective and you can't truthfully go around saying something is straight up garbage. Because it isn't. Even is ZZ is slightly worse that doesn't make it irrelevant and deserving to burn in hellfire for all eternity. That's just a stupid statement. Your opinion isn't better than others. You need to acknowledge that there are people pushing to get ZZ more recognition. Telling them they are pursuing a lost cause because it is invalid is not okay. One day we will get a sub-6 average officially with ZZ and what will you say? You'll have to retract your opinion because you have just been proven wrong. Your opinion is now "garbage". It doesn't hold up to truth. Even now without super great ZZ results I think a method getting sub-10 averages is good enough that is at least decent. That's more than can be said for APB and Nautilus.

No, ZZ isn't garbage, that is ridiculous claim. Any material you can garner on why ZZ is theoretically worse than ZZ won't make it a fact. It can't be proven. ZZ isn't bad, much less garbage.

Quack!
I applaud your efforts, fellow duck.
 
With eocross you rarely regrip and transitioning is actually a lot easier with reduced cases and deduction
The thing is, that wasn't my question. The full context was me asking "Why". I assume you are a ZZ solver so tell me, why do ZZers struggle with this. Yes, I know that ZZ theoretically should rarely have regrips and it makes sense that it would have better transitions, I do not deny that. My question was, why aren't you, as a ZZ solver applying that. Why can't ZZers prove their claims? Is it because it isn't actually true. It seems like it should be true to me. Instead of replying to my sentence that asked ZZ users a question with a question of your own why don't you just tell me?

You say that ZZ with eocross rarely has regrips like it is a fact but is it really? What is you definition of rare because I certainly see ZZ solvers regripping regularly.
 
The thing is, that wasn't my question. The full context was me asking "Why". I assume you are a ZZ solver so tell me, why do ZZers struggle with this. Yes, I know that ZZ theoretically should rarely have regrips and it makes sense that it would have better transitions, I do not deny that. My question was, why aren't you, as a ZZ solver applying that. Why can't ZZers prove their claims? Is it because it isn't actually true. It seems like it should be true to me. Instead of replying to my sentence that asked ZZ users a question with a question of your own why don't you just tell me?

You say that ZZ with eocross rarely has regrips like it is a fact but is it really? What is you definition of rare because I certainly see ZZ solvers regripping regularly.
They probably arent x2y neutral and use eoline
 
Garbage, huh?

This seems to be an incredibly common remark that is made by countless young members. It has no validity and is an impulsive statement with no logical reasoning behind. If you ponder upon it any critically thinking being can obviously see that this type of thing is my bologna.

First, let's define garbage. When used as a derogatory insult this is a very strong word. It is never used to mean "not as good" or "slightly worse/inferior. It means so bad that it makes one question its existence. So bad that it deserves to be shoved into a pit of disposal so that it may be destroyed. So bad that it is so objectively and immeasurably worse that the very thought of thinking otherwise is just silly.

"Straight up" implies that there is no way this can be deflected because it is so objectively true.

Now, let's address why this statement is silly.

Something that could make a method bad would be taking an incredible amount of moves to reach a simple goal. The Chad method is garbage. It uses a ton of algorithms to do something that can be achieved more efficiently with other methods. The Chad method was created as a meme method though so it's purposely bad and a lazy point for me to make. The truth is is that it's very hard to find a method that is truly garbage because it's just too strong of a word. Even the "Sexy method" isn't garbage. For speed, maybe. But straight up? Not at all. It has taught millions of people how to solve the 3x3x3 Rubik's cube. That's a pretty reputable claim.

Now how is ZZ worse? Let's say somebody counters points made by reputable ZZ users. In theory many of their claims might seem to be obvious and they should theoretically be correct but the thing is is that not all their claims are true in practice. In reality CFOP has potential for greater creativity in a speedsolving environment. RUF really isn't that bad. Why are so many ZBLLS RUF while fewer are RUL? Why do OO cubers spam RUF and not RU? Why are top CFOP solvers so fluid while ZZers have tons of regrips and seem to suffer in transitioning? Yes, the ZZ community is a lot smaller than the CFOP community and also the Roux community but it is also full of knowledgeable people that should be incorporating the strengths of ZZ into their solve. Yet the ZZ usership remains small and we have never seen an Alex or a Sean, nor a Kian or Fahmi.

That's not to say that ZZ is worse than CFOP. I think it's a very interesting method, but we cannot write it off as straight up garbage simply because it doesn't get the same results. Very few cubers become sub-10. Even fewer become sub-8. A microscopic percentage is sub-7. Getting the right cuber to use ZZ with how unpopular it is would be a miracle and that has not been achieved yet. Most people brush off ZZ as inferior because they simply lack the knowledge. A very common error is that cubers don't like it because others don't This is true with ZZ and Petrus. Jperm has a video which I don't recommend anyone watch other than to cringe on what the best method is. He starts off by completely disregarding Petrus as a viable method which leads many cubers to believe that it is not worth studying. I have had a friend that believed Petrus was bad for that simple reason. Dylan than goes on listing a bunch of cons to ZZ but the thing is is that he's so broad and his points are either flawed, ignorant or straight up wrong. That same friend I mentioned also believed ZZ was bad. What makes this ridicules is that he had no original material to back his opinion up. He was basing his opinion of another method based solely on someone else's. He had nothing to prove. He was unprepared to discuss with someone who had a different opinion.

This problem doesn't just apply to cubing. The truth is is that opinion is just that. An opinion. what you say is not objective and you can't truthfully go around saying something is straight up garbage. Because it isn't. Even is ZZ is slightly worse that doesn't make it irrelevant and deserving to burn in hellfire for all eternity. That's just a stupid statement. Your opinion isn't better than others. You need to acknowledge that there are people pushing to get ZZ more recognition. Telling them they are pursuing a lost cause because it is invalid is not okay. One day we will get a sub-6 average officially with ZZ and what will you say? You'll have to retract your opinion because you have just been proven wrong. Your opinion is now "garbage". It doesn't hold up to truth. Even now without super great ZZ results I think a method getting sub-10 averages is good enough that is at least decent. That's more than can be said for APB and Nautilus.

No, ZZ isn't garbage, that is ridiculous claim. Any material you can garner on why ZZ is theoretically worse than ZZ will not make it a fact. It can't be proven. ZZ isn't bad, much less is it garbage.

Quack!

by the time you wrote that message you could have watch the whole video
 
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