Nir1213's Quest to Sub-20 with CFOP!

[Kyle™]

ZBF2L is lower move count.
I've shown some examples earlier in the thread.
I'm not sure why people are telling you to use slow methods and stop learning new things. It's really lazy, bad advice.
You should learn full OLL, and I was giving you a way to be faster in the short term. Same-day improvement for very little learning.
Also, if you've already chosen a learning path, you may want to stick to it and not flip-flop, as this xyz person is suggesting.
Making a very long post explaining why a method is worse than what I've presented isn't really helpful.

 

[EngiNerdBrian]

This thread is strange. The talk of ZBF2L and anything other than just vanilla beginner layer by layer is out of place here. Just practice.

I thought this thread would die instantly because any serious speed cuber can get Sub-1 min with any basic beginner method they want. Just practice. I’m not trying to bash or hate (I am a slow cuber by many of the the standards of this community) but for a quest to get sub-1 min the only recommendation should be to just practice any basic method that interests you.

Nothing beyond what you can learn in your first week of cubing is really necessary to become sub 1-minute. Just practice.

ETA: this did sound a bit pompous so I ill change "vanilla layer by layer" to "vanilla 4LLL" since the OP posted specifically about that. Most of us can agree that's sufficient for sub-1 minute.

 

[Kyle™]

This thread is strange. The talk of ZBF2L and anything other than just vanilla beginner layer by layer is out of place here. Just practice.

I thought this thread would die instantly because any serious speed cuber can get Sub-1 min with any basic beginner method they want. Just practice. I’m not trying to bash or hate (I am a slow cuber by many of the the standards of this community) but for a quest to get sub-1 min the only recommendation should be to just practice any basic method that interests you.

Nothing beyond what you can learn in your first week of cubing is really necessary to become sub 1-minute. Just practice.

Kinda what I stopped using the forums is because people post their thoughts without any real contribution.
I read your post and gained 0 information. It's really frustrating.
OP was told by many to learn full OLL, and was given some advice for short-term progress. That's the whole thread buddy.

 

[qwr]

Kinda what I stopped using the forums is because people post their thoughts without any real contribution.
I read your post and gained 0 information. It's really frustrating.
OP was told by many to learn full OLL, and was given some advice for short-term progress. That's the whole thread buddy.

you may need better reading skills because the point of the post is the last line.
There is no need to learn full OLL at one min avg. 4LLL and basic intuitive F2L knowledge is enough. F2L efficiency likely is the vast majority of the time spent solving, not 2 look OLL or PLL.

 

[Kyle™]

you may need better reading skills because the point of the post is the last line.
There is no need to learn full OLL at one min avg. 4LLL and basic intuitive F2L knowledge is enough. F2L efficiency likely is the vast majority of the time spent solving, not 2 look OLL or PLL.

This doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean "enough"? The OP doesn't want to stay the same speed. He wants to get faster.

It boggles my mind that you're missing the point that 4LLL is what's holding him back and he asked for ways to get faster.
Did you watch his video and see how slow his last layer was?
Aside from practice, he must learn more. I gave him information to learn in 1-2 hours to significantly boost his times.
So, if you want to be a non-contributor and waste OPs time like most people have by saying 'practice', be my guest.

 

[qwr]

if you mean the first video i had to download from a file hosting site, then yes i did watch it
it's hard to tell for sure since the cube is partially off screen but the solve starts at about 0:15, cross and f2l is done at 1:15, and last layer is done in at 2:00, which was not 4LLL. At least the OLL was not 2LOLL. but LL is not hard to improve as a beginner because it is just memorization and straightfoward execution. Learning 4LLL which was not implemented is easy. It is much harder to be good at cross and f2l so that is what practice should be spent on.

No matter what, full OLL is completely unnecessary at this stage of learning. If anything full PLL is easier.

 

[EngiNerdBrian]

Kinda what I stopped using the forums is because people post their thoughts without any real contribution.
I read your post and gained 0 information. It's really frustrating.
OP was told by many to learn full OLL, and was given some advice for short-term progress. That's the whole thread buddy.

There's multiple pages in this thread discussing topics well beyond someone who is solving at a minute plus. My point is that these ideas are irrelevant for someone who averages at 1+minute. Your post has no real contribution and is frustrating, so right back at ya my friend.

I'm just trying to level with the OP. More concepts and ideas won't make you faster, discipline and good mechanics are a better use of your time at this stage. You personally advocated for ZBF2L to the OP which I disagree with, sure that might be technically more efficient or useful but if the OP can't get sub 1-min with basic methods their practice time should not be spent learning new things but should be spent reinforcing the concepts they already know.

I wasnt trying to attack anyone in my post, I just felt that the recommendations to get sub 1-minute in this thread are strange. Yea I am coming at you in this message but that's because I personally think your advice is flawed. Based on the video posted the OP doesn't need to learn new things but just get better at what they already know, i.e. 4LLL. 10 pages on how to get sub-1 minute is out of place here on the forums and the blanket recommendation should be generic advice not pointers to advanced alg sets.

 

[qwr]

I am quite slow which makes me less qualified on how to be fast but more qualified as a beginner (it is often the case at my uni that the TAs, being former students, have a better understanding of what students need to improve than the professors do). I dropped my times very quickly by learning 4LLL and reviewing my F2L cases regularly. That is all that is needed to get to 30 seconds.

 

[EngiNerdBrian]

I am quite slow which makes me less qualified on how to be fast but more qualified as a beginner (it is often the case at my uni that the TAs, being former students, have a better understanding of what students need to improve than the professors do). I dropped my times very quickly by learning 4LLL and reviewing my F2L cases regularly. That is all that is needed to get to 30 seconds.

Yes exactly. That's why I'm confused whe @Kyle™ is recommending full OLL and ZBF2L to someone who averages over a minute!

 

[xyzzy]

ZBF2L is lower move count.
I've shown some examples earlier in the thread.

With the same four example scrambles I posted on the previous page, my solutions were 19.75 moves long on average and VHLS into corner OLL solutions were 19.0 moves. Shorter, but not by much. In fact, I just went and compared ten freshly generated scrambles.

Spoiler

"easy only" = some of the short non-dot OLL cases
"vhls" = only the joined-pair VHLS cases
Move counts are in STM.

U' R2 D L2 D F2 U' F2 L2 D2 R' U R' U2 B' R' B

easy only:
y' U R' U2 R U R' U' R
U' F U R U' R' F'
L' U' L U' L' U2 L
22

vhls:
y' U R' U2 R U R' U2 R
B L U L' B'
L U2 L' U' L U' L'
20


U2 B2 U2 R2 D' R2 D' F2 L2 F2 U2 L' D' L D' B2 F R' F' R2

easy only:
R U R' U2 R U R'
U F U R U' R' F'
R U R' U R U2 R'
21

vhls:
R U R' U2 R U2 R'
R B U' B' R'
R' U2 R U R' U R
19


R2 B' R2 B U2 R2 F R2 F2 U' F U2 R U' R'

easy only:
y' U' R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R'
U' F U R U' R' F'
R' U2 R U R' U R
22

vhls:
y' U' R U2 R2 U' R
U' R' U' F U R2 U' R' F'
R U R' U R U2 R'
22


R' U' F' U F R2 U' R2 U2 B2 R' B2 U2 R U2 L U2 L'

easy only:
U2 R U2 R' U' R U2 R'
U F U R U' R' F'
F' r U R' U' r' F R
23

vhls:
U2 R U2 R'
U2 S' R U' R' S
U R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R2 U2 R
20


B2 L U2 L U2 L U2 L2 U2 B2 D' L F' L' U2 F D

easy only:
U' F' U' F
U2 F U R U' R' F'
L' U' L U' L' U2 L
18

vhls:
y U' L' U2 L F R U R' F'
R U2 R' U' R U' R'
16


D2 U2 F' U2 B' U2 F U2 F' U2 F R' U2 R U2 B D2

easy only:
U2 R U R' U' R U2 R'
M' U' M U2 M' U' M
15

vhls:
U2 R U R'
U2 S' R U' R' S
R U R' U R U2 R'
17


F U F2 U' F2 U' F R' F2 R2 U2 R' F2 U2 R U2 R' F2

easy only:
U F' U' F
U r U2 R' U' R U' r'
12

vhls:
y U L' U2 L
U L F' L2 U' L U F
U2 R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R2 U2 R
22


R U2 L D2 R' U2 R D2 U2 R' F2 U' F' U F U2 F L'

easy only:
y' U R' U' R U' R' U R
F U R U' R' F'
R U R D R' U' R D' R2
23

vhls:
y U L' U' L
U' L' B' U B L
L' U2 L U L' U L
17


U' B' U' R2 U B U2 R2 B2 U2 B2 U' B2 U' B2 U' R2

easy only:
U R U' R' d' L' U L
U r U R' U R U2 r'
16

vhls:
U R U' R' d' F R U R' F'
R' U2 R' D' R U2 R' D R2
19


R F2 R F2 R' D R2 U R2 F2 U R2 U' F2 D' F2

easy only:
R U R' U R U' R'
U' F' r U R' U' r' F R
16

vhls:
R U R' U R U' R'
U' F' r U R' U' r' F R
16

Both methods averaged 18.8 moves over these samples.

OP was told by many to learn full OLL

Name two people who said that in this thread. Or heck, even just one. (I didn't find any mention of immediately learning full OLL at all, but maybe my eyes glossed over something.)

 

[PetrusQuber]

But seriously. Just practise for sub 1 min.
You don’t need anything else, and OP’s never said he wants to get faster.
Of course I’m assuming that he does but why learn now? There are more useful things to be learning at the moment...
And starting off everything van be quite overwhelming and confusing

 

[Skewb_Cube]

So, I don't want to sound rude or anything, but this is just getting annoying and confusing. At the beginning of this I wanted to help someone new to the community and make a good impression of it, so I gave some basic tips as other people did, but little by little other suggestions came out, which weren't the best for a beginner (I supported those tips for a while, and I don't know why) and from that point a kind of controversy, dilemma, or what ever started. And so, people started arguing, etc.

So, my point of this post is to show what this progression thread has come to, at the start there was simple tips which were enough to get to sub-1 minute or more. But then people started arguing if it's worth it or not to learn more advanced things.

IMO, I think this thread should be deleted, because this is just unnecessary at this point, there's nothing new to add here that is going to be really helpful for someone that is starting out, this just become in to a debate, which wasn't the purpose of the thread. And I understand both points of view (the people that want @Nir1213 to keep it simple and the other people that want him to learn as much as he can) but, as I mention before, this just got annoying, probably for everyone, which I think is better to delete this and make everyone for get about this.

 

[PetrusQuber]

This doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean "enough"? The OP doesn't want to stay the same speed. He wants to get faster.

It boggles my mind that you're missing the point that 4LLL is what's holding him back and he asked for ways to get faster.
Did you watch his video and see how slow his last layer was?
Aside from practice, he must learn more. I gave him information to learn in 1-2 hours to significantly boost his times.
So, if you want to be a non-contributor and waste OPs time like most people have by saying 'practice', be my guest.

What is wrong with practise may I ask?
I mean the entire point of the thread is to get sub 1 minute.


Are you really going to tell me that practising won’t do that?

Heck I’ve seen people who never knew about other methods or couldn’t be bothered to switch reach sub 25 just with vanilla beginner’s...

 

[PetrusQuber]

Ok honestly, just finish learning and executing the cases Kyle gave you.
Maybe I didn’t agree with this, it doesn’t matter. OP has already put effort into learning and practising the cases.
Once OP has finished, no more argument? Right?

I mean I learnt full PLL at sub 40. I don’t know why, I had better things to do at that point, but I did anyway.
So I guess Nir you can start learning some basic ZBF2L cases.
It depends on how far you want to go to be honest. Obviously if you plan to stop at sub 1 min, then just practise solving.

 

[Nir1213]

zbf2l is useless anyway
i think its enough for me to get sub 1 min with oll and pll
the reason why this thread was longer because of the zbf2l stuff

ZBF2L is lower move count.
I've shown some examples earlier in the thread.
I'm not sure why people are telling you to use slow methods and stop learning new things. It's really lazy, bad advice.
You should learn full OLL, and I was giving you a way to be faster in the short term. Same-day improvement for very little learning.
Also, if you've already chosen a learning path, you may want to stick to it and not flip-flop, as this xyz person is suggesting.
Making a very long post explaining why a method is worse than what I've presented isn't really helpful.

i will basically have the same time even with zbf2l because doing the dot, line, or l shaped oll is basically the same time as executing zbf2l to get the cross
it has basically no use
im better off using oll and pll

 

[PetrusQuber]

zbf2l is useless anyway
i think its enough for me to get sub 1 min with oll and pll
the reason why this thread was longer because of the zbf2l stuff

i will basically have the same time even with zbf2l because doing the dot, line, or l shaped oll is basically the same time as executing zbf2l to get the cross
it has basically no use
im better off using oll and pll

Yeah, the whole reason ZBF2L was invented was to go with ZBLL to one look last layer.

 

[Nmile7300]

Oh man this has gotten out of hand. I personally believe that trying to get someone who doesn't even average sub 1 minute to do ZBF2L/VHLS is stupid and ridiculous. From what I can tell, it started as a shortcut for @Nir1213 to lazily get out of learning basic 4LLL. The problem is that there are no shortcuts in cubing. ZBF2L at one minute is completely pointless and it is only confusing @Nir1213 even more. I think this quest would have been over weeks ago if people hadn't tried to make him do ZBF2L. @Nir1213 Combined with practice, the basic beginner tips various people have given you in this thread more than enough to get you sub one easily. Also you might want to check out this thread I made, it says 20-30 seconds, but it applies to you as well: https://www.speedsolving.com/thread...rages-between-20-and-30-seconds-on-3x3.78117/

 

[Nir1213]

ZBF2L is lower move count.
I've shown some examples earlier in the thread.
I'm not sure why people are telling you to use slow methods and stop learning new things. It's really lazy, bad advice.
You should learn full OLL, and I was giving you a way to be faster in the short term. Same-day improvement for very little learning.
Also, if you've already chosen a learning path, you may want to stick to it and not flip-flop, as this xyz person is suggesting.
Making a very long post explaining why a method is worse than what I've presented isn't really helpful.

Yeah, the whole reason ZBF2L was invented was to go with ZBLL to one look last layer.

wait 1 look that isnt possible lol

Oh man this has gotten out of hand. I personally believe that trying to get someone who doesn't even average sub 1 minute to do ZBF2L/VHLS is stupid and ridiculous. From what I can tell, it started as a shortcut for @Nir1213 to lazily get out of learning basic 4LLL. The problem is that there are no shortcuts in cubing. ZBF2L at one minute is completely pointless and it is only confusing @Nir1213 even more. I think this quest would have been over weeks ago if people hadn't tried to make him do ZBF2L. @Nir1213 Combined with practice, the basic beginner tips various people have given you in this thread more than enough to get you sub one easily.

exactly

 

[Skewb_Cube]

wait 1 look that isnt possible lol

It is, if someone uses ZBLL, but that's only used when the top cross is done, that's why @PetrusQuber mention that zbF2L was meant for that.

 

[Nir1213]

It is, if someone uses ZBLL, but that's only used when the top cross is done, that's why @PetrusQuber mention that zbF2L was meant for that.

its not worth it learning hundreds of algs