[Help Thread] OLL and PLL Discussion

I totally agree with OP. I learnt full pll when i was not even sub1, and never regret it really.
However, i must admit, i have postponed learning certain things to certain thresholds, for example went for full OLL only when i was sub20. Why I did this was because it psychologically makes me stuck at a lesser time for that 20 s barrier and helped me improve a little fast from that stage compared to otherwise. Its good to have consistent improvement rather than fast improvement and no improvement, even if there is no difference overall, the former just feels better and keeps me more motivated to cube
 
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Akash Rupela said:
Its good to have consistent improvement rather than fast improvement and no improvement, even if there is no difference overall, the former just feels better and keeps me more motivated to cube
Click to expand...

That is perfectly worded for what I wanted to say. Learning algs is slowing me down at short term but improving me at long term. How ever improving just by practicing normal solves is really keeping me motivated.
 
Another good reason to delay, is that when your progress completely stalls/plateaus, you automatically have something in the bag to learn to keep progress going. My times completely stalled at around 20 seconds (had previously been smoothly moving down), I learned full OLL (which got me sub-20) and it seemed to kick-start times continuing to descend. OLL and PLL are like a pair of single use turbo boosts to keep times descending. I know the difference I am describing is purely psychological, but its a difference nonetheless.
 
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TwisterTimmy, God of Rubic 2, MarcelP:

As regards the best place to get started with full OLL/PLL, some of badmephistos algs are a bit out of date, and have essentially been replaced (in top cubers repertoires) by algs requiring fewer regrips, or that are more fingertrickable. As a for example, the E perm given is not used by anyone really fast anymore, the N perms are out of fashion etc etc. I keep detailed records of the alg sets used by many of the top cubers, so I am offering these two documents as a starting point. All the algs contained herein are sub 1-able, and are in the order I learned them in.

This list is optimised for the right hand heavy cuber, I would make different suggestions for the more ambidextrous or hand balanced cuber, and there are a couple of instances where the choice is one that makes sense fingertrick wise for the 4-look cuber, but you may wish to replace with a more difficult to learn alg that requires fewer regrips in future.

The major areas of debate around which PLL algs are good include:

1) U-perms (many prefer more optimal M move algs),
2) whether the U moves in H and Z perms are U or U' (basically depends on how you execute M'/M2 moves),
3) Robert Yau has put forward some very useable alternative V perms,
4) there is a lot of debate about N perms (Na alternatives include RUR’U then Jb perm, Nb there is a good RUF alternative),
5) there is a good bar left F perm using RUF,
6) there is a favourable Ra which is simply the mirror of Rb on the left. Right hand heavy cubers find it more difficult,
7) and for Ja there is a very fingertrickable bar at left version.


As for OLL, the only ones I would really considering changing from this list are:

OLL 3, 4 and 17, there are regripless M slice versions out there, but those given are easier to learn since they are simple f2l extraction/insertions
OLL 43, 47, there are potentially better algs if you are left hand heavy/balanced
OLL 39, there are alternatives if you are really bad with the left hand
OLL 37 is a bit idiosyncratic, but it makes sense to my muscle memory

I fully expect many would disagree with my some of my choices, but after considerable research, these are in my opinion the best place to start, and then if there are any you really don't get on with, then check out the alternatives on the wiki, or watch some ninja cubers on youtube and copy their algs. I would suggest not bothering with an alg unless you have seen it executed sub-1, as these guys are doing the leg work to find the absolute best possible algs so you don't have to! It also reduces the contenders for a given alg from 20-30 on the wiki, to 3 or 4 that you know definitely have potential.

I would also, as you get more advanced, consider learning some algs that can be executed from different angles to those given, to avoid AUF.
The main ones that people learn extra for are Ua and Ub (bar front).
There are also good algs for Aa and Ab (solved corner top left), Vs (with corner top right), 180 degree T-perms and different perm endings to avoid post PLL AUF, F with bar left and/or toward, Ja (bar left or right), Jb (bar right), G perms (headlight toward), and a Gc (headlights right).

However, all told, if you learn the Ua and Ub alternatives, you don't really need to worry until you are sub-10!
 

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I guess for someone like me who started out early learning full PLL and OLL, you have to remember that efficiency in F2L is better than speed hence the advice to "slow down and look ahead". I did have to learn to do that because I had so much fun practicing PLL and OLL that I generally had high tps for LL and too much pausing during F2L. But if you can grasp the idea of slowing down and looking ahead, it won't be a problem. Plus, you get more time to spend on F2L because your LL is this many seconds faster. It would only be better if you ended most "solves" after F2L only so you can concentrate only on that part. I do that sometimes... stop solve after F2L and scramble again.

Reply to Marcel: I started CFOP about a year ago, November 2011. By February 2012 I was at 36 seconds average still using just a Rubik's brand at which time I switched to a Guhong.

Edit: speedpicker, thanks for PDFs. Took a look at them. I use most of the same algs. OLL52 alg doesn't seem to work.
Edit2: Figured out OLL52. Required a y2 before the alg relative to the diagram.
 
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i started learning full PLL when i was probably like 40 secondish average and never really learned full OLL even after i got to sub 30. Never learned all 57 because i then switched to ZZ method where knowing 7 OLLs IS full OLL :3
 
speedpicker said:
TwisterTimmy, God of Rubic 2, MarcelP:

As regards the best place to get started with full OLL/PLL, some of badmephistos algs are a bit out of date, and have essentially been replaced (in top cubers repertoires) by algs requiring fewer regrips, or that are more fingertrickable. As a for example, the E perm given is not used by anyone really fast anymore, the N perms are out of fashion etc etc. I keep detailed records of the alg sets used by many of the top cubers, so I am offering these two documents as a starting point. All the algs contained herein are sub 1-able, and are in the order I learned them in.

This list is optimised for the right hand heavy cuber, I would make different suggestions for the more ambidextrous or hand balanced cuber, and there are a couple of instances where the choice is one that makes sense fingertrick wise for the 4-look cuber, but you may wish to replace with a more difficult to learn alg that requires fewer regrips in future.

The major areas of debate around which PLL algs are good include:

1) U-perms (many prefer more optimal M move algs),
2) whether the U moves in H and Z perms are U or U' (basically depends on how you execute M'/M2 moves),
3) Robert Yau has put forward some very useable alternative V perms,
4) there is a lot of debate about N perms (Na alternatives include RUR’U then Jb perm, Nb there is a good RUF alternative),
5) there is a good bar left F perm using RUF,
6) there is a favourable Ra which is simply the mirror of Rb on the left. Right hand heavy cubers find it more difficult,
7) and for Ja there is a very fingertrickable bar at left version.


As for OLL, the only ones I would really considering changing from this list are:

OLL 3, 4 and 17, there are regripless M slice versions out there, but those given are easier to learn since they are simple f2l extraction/insertions
OLL 43, 47, there are potentially better algs if you are left hand heavy/balanced
OLL 39, there are alternatives if you are really bad with the left hand
OLL 37 is a bit idiosyncratic, but it makes sense to my muscle memory

I fully expect many would disagree with my some of my choices, but after considerable research, these are in my opinion the best place to start, and then if there are any you really don't get on with, then check out the alternatives on the wiki, or watch some ninja cubers on youtube and copy their algs. I would suggest not bothering with an alg unless you have seen it executed sub-1, as these guys are doing the leg work to find the absolute best possible algs so you don't have to! It also reduces the contenders for a given alg from 20-30 on the wiki, to 3 or 4 that you know definitely have potential.

I would also, as you get more advanced, consider learning some algs that can be executed from different angles to those given, to avoid AUF.
The main ones that people learn extra for are Ua and Ub (bar front).
There are also good algs for Aa and Ab (solved corner top left), Vs (with corner top right), 180 degree T-perms and different perm endings to avoid post PLL AUF, F with bar left and/or toward, Ja (bar left or right), Jb (bar right), G perms (headlight toward), and a Gc (headlights right).

However, all told, if you learn the Ua and Ub alternatives, you don't really need to worry until you are sub-10!
Click to expand...

WOW, thank you very very very VERY much for this! :) Greatly appreciated and extremely grateful! I'll get practicing right away! :D
 
How should I learn OLL and PLL?

I am relatively new to cubing, I have been cubing for one month but can consistently achieve averages of sub-45.

I am learning the Fridrich method (CFOP) and am doing intuitive F2L and am trying to memorize the PLL cases and algorithms first.

I am wondering at what speed i should learn them at ,I know there are around 60-70 algorithms i need to learn ( i didnt count the ones i know already) and I am aiming to learn it loosely in a week. I know this is crazy but I really don't want to spend too much time on Fridrich as I have ordered a 2x2, 4x4 and 5x5 cube already and I will get distracted from Fridrich

I guess i will be lucky if I get even all the PLLs in a week but i just wanted your opinion to know if this is possible.

I can spend up to 4 hours learning the algs and have already learned about 7 of the PLL cases (not inclusive of the ones i know) and i think I am doing ok should i continue like this or learn less algs everyday?

Just a side note 'I am asian' and have memorized 32 digits of pi ( the number) and i am doing VCE level maths ( well most of my maths is that level) but im in year 7 ( not trying to brag lots of prodigies better then me) so do you guys think i could do it? and if so encouragement is appreciated :D

Thanks guys
 
70 algorithms in 1 week means 10 algorithms a day.
Learning an algorithm means being able to execute it fast without trying to remember every single move, and being able to recognize it easily. I guess you can do about 3 of those a day, 4 max. Mastering 10 algorithms in a day is just too much.

Why are in such a hurry to learn all the OLL and PLL algorithms? I suggest you start with learning 2-look PLL (meaning you first permute the edges, then you permute the corners), It requires a small amount of algorithms.

After you're done with the 2-look PLL, learn 2-look OLL which is really easy too. 3 algorithms to orient edges, about 8 algorithms to orient corners which I bet you already know about 2-3 of them.

2-Look OLL is really fast and you can achieve amazing times with it, full OLL is a lot of work which should be done very slowly, learning a couple of new algs every day, there's no reason to rush it and it doesn't even improve your times that much.

Full PLL is of-course much easier to learn than full OLL, I suggest your goal for the week to be 2-look OLL and full PLL.

And don't forget, "learning" an algorithm means: Being able to execute it without breaks and without trying to memorize every move and being able to recognize it easly. If you just learn the moves and memorize them and then move on to another algorithm you'll be surprised of how fast you've already forgotten the first one.

About the 4x4x4 and 5x5x5, you need the fridrich method when solving them. When solving a 4x4x4 for example, first you create the centers (a 4x4x4 has no fixed centers like a 3x3x3, so you have to "build" 2x2 centers), then you join up edge pairs. After these 2 steps, your 4x4x4 looks exactly like a 3x3x3 and you solve it like a 3x3x3. (Sometimes you get parity which means you have to break the 3x3x3 cube to fix the parity using a couple of algorithms, but other than that, it's just like a 3x3x3).

So take it slow, just because you memorized 32 digits of pi and you're asian doesn't mean you have super-powers.
 
omer said:
70 algorithms in 1 week means 10 algorithms a day.
Learning an algorithm means being able to execute it fast without trying to remember every single move, and being able to recognize it easily. I guess you can do about 3 of those a day, 4 max. Mastering 10 algorithms in a day is just too much.

Why are in such a hurry to learn all the OLL and PLL algorithms? I suggest you start with learning 2-look PLL (meaning you first permute the edges, then you permute the corners), It requires a small amount of algorithms.

After you're done with the 2-look PLL, learn 2-look OLL which is really easy too. 3 algorithms to orient edges, about 8 algorithms to orient corners which I bet you already know about 2-3 of them.

2-Look OLL is really fast and you can achieve amazing times with it, full OLL is a lot of work which should be done very slowly, learning a couple of new algs every day, there's no reason to rush it and it doesn't even improve your times that much.

Full PLL is of-course much easier to learn than full OLL, I suggest your goal for the week to be 2-look OLL and full PLL.

And don't forget, "learning" an algorithm means: Being able to execute it without breaks and without trying to memorize every move and being able to recognize it easly. If you just learn the moves and memorize them and then move on to another algorithm you'll be surprised of how fast you've already forgotten the first one.

About the 4x4x4 and 5x5x5, you need the fridrich method when solving them. When solving a 4x4x4 for example, first you create the centers (a 4x4x4 has no fixed centers like a 3x3x3, so you have to "build" 2x2 centers), then you join up edge pairs. After these 2 steps, your 4x4x4 looks exactly like a 3x3x3 and you solve it like a 3x3x3. (Sometimes you get parity which means you have to break the 3x3x3 cube to fix the parity using a couple of algorithms, but other than that, it's just like a 3x3x3).

So take it slow, just because you memorized 32 digits of pi and you're asian doesn't mean you have super-powers.
Click to expand...

lol never said im good at anything just something that might change your opinion before you jump to a c, also i already know the 2 look OLL and PLL, and also i dont really feel like using the reduction method for the 4x4 and 5x5

Thanks for the advice i think ill slow it down a bit :D
 
How should I learn OLL and PLL?

Your last sentences of your original post were what he was referring to. Your maths level has little to nothing to do with cubing and 32 digits of pi is not that much anyway. Though you did say that you weren't trying to brag so eh.

As for learning, you can try learning a huge chunk in one go then seeing how many you remember, then repeat. Or you can learn one a day or some other sorta routon but no one ever sticks to them. I recommend you learn PLL before OLL though.
 
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Just go for it, I learnt full PLL in just over a week without really trying. Saying that, I still don't know full OLL after starting to learn it 8 months ago.
 
Took me over a year to learn OLL.
The problem wasn't learning the algs. It was remembering them for longer than a day.
There are just so many different algs for OLL, unless you are doing several hundred solves every day, you aren't going to be getting them all in actual solves in order to *REALLY* practice all that often.
I would find that I would just keep forgetting algs that I had already learned, or I would get similar looking cases mixed up with each other.
Using some training software definitely helps, but in the end its still not the same as having the case pop up in a regular solve.

My advice would be to go for it, just learn as much as you can.
But be prepared to do it again. And again. And again :)
 
You're year 7 so I'm assuming you're Australian or from the uk. Either way, you have so much free time in the next 2 years that you definitely shouldn't want to cram it into 1 week. Go slow, learn full pll then have a break. Learn 2look oll.

Remember that F2L takes up the most time in a solve so I'd say work on that the most.

And as for your remembrance of 32 digits of pi, you really won't need that in life.

Just use a f*cking calculator.
 
Dylann said:
You're year 7 so I'm assuming you're Australian or from the uk. Either way, you have so much free time in the next 2 years that you definitely shouldn't want to cram it into 1 week. Go slow, learn full pll then have a break. Learn 2look oll.

Remember that F2L takes up the most time in a solve so I'd say work on that the most.

And as for your remembrance of 32 digits of pi, you really won't need that in life.

Just use a f*cking calculator.
Click to expand...

Memorizing digits of pi isn't for calculation accuracy, it's done for fun, as a challenge. Just as solving a cube has no importance, people do it for the competition, for the challenge, because it's fun.
 
omer said:
Memorizing digits of pi isn't for calculation accuracy, it's done for fun, as a challenge. Just as solving a cube has no importance, people do it for the competition, for the challenge, because it's fun.
Click to expand...

Sort of pointless? You can see that a Rubik's cube is solved but you can't always confirm the digits of pi, you could be stating random numbers and unless anyone had the list in front of them they'd never know....contradicting everything I've just said I've always wanted to learn a high amount of pi numbers just for fun so I might give it a go one day.
 
as i said in my reply i have already learned 2 look OLL and 2 look PLL, i think ill try to learn all of PLL and have a break and then go for full OLL also the only reason i memorized that many digits of pi is because i wanted to have something i was better than the rest of my family at, thus i found out about speed solving. And the only reason my memory and maths is so good is not because im asian but because my parents are, and asian parents force you to get high scores so its not really something im proud of to be years ahead, and also doesnt spacial intelligence help with solving different sized cubes and stuff?
 
Force an OLL skip and some more tips...

How can i improve i always average 40 seconds with f2l and 2 look oll and 1 look pll how to i force a oll skip plz need help
 
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