ZZ speedcubing method
- Thread starter MHordecki
- Start date
Jukuren
Regular
I know a local cuber who does... Nick Vu, Well all ZZLL minus the sune cases cuz he said its easier and just as fast to do Sune+PLL
Do you know what kind of times he's getting with ZZ. Is it his main method and how does he think it stacks up against CFOP?
Last edited:
DavidWoner
The Punchmaster
- Joined
- May 7, 2008
- Messages
- 3,936
- Location
- Kansas City, MO, USA
- WCA ID
- 2008WONE01
- YouTube
- Visit Channel
tx789
Veteran
If some poeple learn ZB then there will be people who use full ZZ
nickvu2
Veteran
^That's me XD
In general, I'm not a fast cuber. I've been slowly transitioning from CFOP (>3yrs; 23 sec) to ZZ (1yr; 29 sec). <- those are official avgs. Now that I'm using ZZ in comp, I consider it my main.
I do think ZZ is superior to CFOP, of course that's just an opinion. I have no doubt that my ZZ times will eventually surpass my CFOP times. The biggest hangup at the moment is EOLine. Honestly, your time would probably be better spent mastering that than learning tons of algs that may only save you a couple seconds. Yet even though I'm not breaking any records with it, I do get a lot of satisfaction for being one of only a few in the world who knows it. Not to mention it's a pretty epic feeling to solve LL in 1-look. XD
So again, if fast times are your only concern, your energy would probably be better spent elsewhere...at least until you've mastered every other aspect of the method.
Let me know if you have any more questions.
1) Nick, what do you think are the pro's and con's of complete ZZ compared to CFOP?
2) How hard was it for you to re-learn F2L Blockbuilding?(At first I had a pretty easy time with good/bad edges EOLine but I took a cube and just put stickers on 2 layers to learn block building F2L and it killed me even following Crider's tutorial. I'm slow at CFOP F2L but it seemed more intuitive and even color neutrality came easy after learning edge orientation).
3) Do you always 'Phase' and how do you recognize your ZZLL cases?
4) Do you think that in the hands of an expert ZZ times could beat CFOP times?
5) Ever thought about a Youtube blockbuilding tutorial?
Last edited:
nickvu2
Veteran
1) Nick, what do you think are the pro's and con's of complete ZZ compared to CFOP?
ZZ: fewer moves(?), no cube turns & lots of 3 gen, fewer looks in last layer
CFOP: more popular=>more resources=>more help available, more straight forward transition from beginner methods, less LL cases=>lower memo burden and you get more practice with each case
2) How hard was it for you to re-learn F2L Blockbuilding?(At first I had a pretty easy time with good/bad edges EOLine but I took a cube and just put stickers on 2 layers to learn block building F2L and it killed me even following Crider's tutorial. I'm slow at CFOP F2L but it seemed more intuitive and even color neutrality came easy after learning edge orientation).
Between EOLine, block building and LL, it was block building that was by far the easiest. That's not to say it was easy.
3) Do you always 'Phase' and how do you recognize your ZZLL cases?
Some Phase cases are nasty and I go back and forth on whether to phase them or not. I recently added an entry on Advanced Phasing to the wiki. There's also a link to my doc at the bottom. I'm considering learning a couple of those cases.
4) Do you think that in the hands of an expert ZZ times could beat CFOP times?
The simple answer, yes. It's hard to compare 2 anomalies (expert cubers) though; unless you clone them and provide identical environments and experiences. So we're really talking statistics here. I think disparity in the total population of each plays a big role. Lots of CFOPers means lots of outliers, ie bigger chance of really good solvers. Further, the more people, the more sharing of ideas and increased opportunity for feedback. This also gives the CFOP community a huge edge. But ZZ seems to be growing, providing ever increasing opportunity for experts to emerge. I don't think it's inevitable that ZZ surpasses CFOP, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
5) Ever thought about a Youtube blockbuilding tutorial?
I've thought about lots of tutorials! ZZ is higher on the list and it would include block building. According to my wild schemes, it'll be done by the new year. But knowing me, don't hold your breath.
ZZ: fewer moves(?), no cube turns & lots of 3 gen, fewer looks in last layer
CFOP: more popular=>more resources=>more help available, more straight forward transition from beginner methods, less LL cases=>lower memo burden and you get more practice with each case
2) How hard was it for you to re-learn F2L Blockbuilding?(At first I had a pretty easy time with good/bad edges EOLine but I took a cube and just put stickers on 2 layers to learn block building F2L and it killed me even following Crider's tutorial. I'm slow at CFOP F2L but it seemed more intuitive and even color neutrality came easy after learning edge orientation).
Between EOLine, block building and LL, it was block building that was by far the easiest. That's not to say it was easy.
3) Do you always 'Phase' and how do you recognize your ZZLL cases?
Some Phase cases are nasty and I go back and forth on whether to phase them or not. I recently added an entry on Advanced Phasing to the wiki. There's also a link to my doc at the bottom. I'm considering learning a couple of those cases.
4) Do you think that in the hands of an expert ZZ times could beat CFOP times?
The simple answer, yes. It's hard to compare 2 anomalies (expert cubers) though; unless you clone them and provide identical environments and experiences. So we're really talking statistics here. I think disparity in the total population of each plays a big role. Lots of CFOPers means lots of outliers, ie bigger chance of really good solvers. Further, the more people, the more sharing of ideas and increased opportunity for feedback. This also gives the CFOP community a huge edge. But ZZ seems to be growing, providing ever increasing opportunity for experts to emerge. I don't think it's inevitable that ZZ surpasses CFOP, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
5) Ever thought about a Youtube blockbuilding tutorial?
I've thought about lots of tutorials! ZZ is higher on the list and it would include block building. According to my wild schemes, it'll be done by the new year. But knowing me, don't hold your breath.
Thanks! Brilliant little treatise! I forgot to ask with your form of phasing what is the general Alg count for complete ZZ compared to CFOP?
And for question (4) I should have put it the way: Clone Feliks Zemdegs, have one Feliks master CFOP and one Master total ZZ, where would ZZ Feliks have an advantage over CFOP Feliks and vice versa.
To me the main advantage that ZZ has is that if you master EOLine, and Phasing you have 1 look ZZLL compared to OLL/PLL with the recognition for both. It's said that the total ZZLL cases after Phasing is 80(not much more than OLL/PLL combined) but I don't know if that's including Phasing Algs.
nickvu2
Veteran
Not 80 cases, 80 algs minimum if you're not counting mirrors and inverses. Here's the thing though, an inverse sexy move is one thing, an inverse PLL is quite another; not to mention an inverse alg may not flow as nicely, requiring a brand new alg for the case. And I wouldn't say mirrors are a given, they still require practice. To say 80 is quite misleading.
Phasing is done to achieve a particular edge state. Regardless of whether your using intuitive or advanced phasing, you're always left with the same outcome, thus the same number of algs. Full ZZLL is 160 cases (Does anyone know why the wiki says 167? Am I missing something?) Plus 21 PLLs, which you have to know in case of an OLL skip. So 181 cases. However I decided, and Harris Chan confirmed, that sune and anti-sune cases aren't worth learning since sune is so freaking fast as it is. Therefor, I only use 112+21=133 algs. And you can always get away with intuitive phasing, but once dialed in you could call that 6 very simple algs after setup. Although 2 phase cases are a serious pain, so eventually I want to learn those 6 algs as well.
CFOPFaz vs ZZFaz...fight! You probably gather by now that my money is on ZZ, and again this is based on little more than intuition. But I'm starting to think SnyderFaz might beat them both. *Did I just hear a can of worms openning*
Phasing is done to achieve a particular edge state. Regardless of whether your using intuitive or advanced phasing, you're always left with the same outcome, thus the same number of algs. Full ZZLL is 160 cases (Does anyone know why the wiki says 167? Am I missing something?) Plus 21 PLLs, which you have to know in case of an OLL skip. So 181 cases. However I decided, and Harris Chan confirmed, that sune and anti-sune cases aren't worth learning since sune is so freaking fast as it is. Therefor, I only use 112+21=133 algs. And you can always get away with intuitive phasing, but once dialed in you could call that 6 very simple algs after setup. Although 2 phase cases are a serious pain, so eventually I want to learn those 6 algs as well.
CFOPFaz vs ZZFaz...fight! You probably gather by now that my money is on ZZ, and again this is based on little more than intuition. But I'm starting to think SnyderFaz might beat them both. *Did I just hear a can of worms openning*
Not 80 cases, 80 algs minimum if you're not counting mirrors and inverses. Here's the thing though, an inverse sexy move is one thing, an inverse PLL is quite another; not to mention an inverse alg may not flow as nicely, requiring a brand new alg for the case. And I wouldn't say mirrors are a given, they still require practice. To say 80 is quite misleading.
Phasing is done to achieve a particular edge state. Regardless of whether your using intuitive or advanced phasing, you're always left with the same outcome, thus the same number of algs. Full ZZLL is 160 cases (Does anyone know why the wiki says 167? Am I missing something?) Plus 21 PLLs, which you have to know in case of an OLL skip. So 181 cases. However I decided, and Harris Chan confirmed, that sune and anti-sune cases aren't worth learning since sune is so freaking fast as it is. Therefor, I only use 112+21=133 algs. And you can always get away with intuitive phasing, but once dialed in you could call that 6 very simple algs after setup. Although 2 phase cases are a serious pain, so eventually I want to learn those 6 algs as well.
CFOPFaz vs ZZFaz...fight! You probably gather by now that my money is on ZZ, and again this is based on little more than intuition. But I'm starting to think SnyderFaz might beat them both. *Did I just hear a can of worms openning*
Ah ha! It's those 133+ algs & 181 cases that's gonna keep me in CFOP for a while
But yes you did open a big can of SnyderFaz worms!Not 80 cases, 80 algs minimum if you're not counting mirrors and inverses. Here's the thing though, an inverse sexy move is one thing, an inverse PLL is quite another; not to mention an inverse alg may not flow as nicely, requiring a brand new alg for the case. And I wouldn't say mirrors are a given, they still require practice. To say 80 is quite misleading.
Phasing is done to achieve a particular edge state. Regardless of whether your using intuitive or advanced phasing, you're always left with the same outcome, thus the same number of algs. Full ZZLL is 160 cases (Does anyone know why the wiki says 167? Am I missing something?) Plus 21 PLLs, which you have to know in case of an OLL skip. So 181 cases. However I decided, and Harris Chan confirmed, that sune and anti-sune cases aren't worth learning since sune is so freaking fast as it is. Therefor, I only use 112+21=133 algs. And you can always get away with intuitive phasing, but once dialed in you could call that 6 very simple algs after setup. Although 2 phase cases are a serious pain, so eventually I want to learn those 6 algs as well.
CFOPFaz vs ZZFaz...fight! You probably gather by now that my money is on ZZ, and again this is based on little more than intuition. But I'm starting to think SnyderFaz might beat them both. *Did I just hear a can of worms openning*
Nick, I always forget to ask, when looking at ZBLL cases on the Alg Database do I just look at the cases where 2 edges are opposite to use as ZZLL?(Thinking Alg ZBLL Database might have more fingertricky algs to use for ZZLL)
I have Simon Swanson's 2.57 version ZZLL's(Don't know if it's complete) what is your ZZLL source?
Last edited:
nickvu2
Veteran
Here's my alg list, which is a highly edited version of Simon's list. You're the first to see the final version =) I did a TON of work finding speed optimal algs. I left in all the algs I tried so you have alternatives should you not like the one I settled on. Maybe one day I'll clean it up a little.
ZZLL algs (no sune cases)
On the wiki, just look at the ZBLL cases with phased edges. But you probably won't need the wiki if you have this doc...unless you're looking for sune cases.
ZZLL algs (no sune cases)
On the wiki, just look at the ZBLL cases with phased edges. But you probably won't need the wiki if you have this doc...unless you're looking for sune cases.
y235
Veteran
Nick, how does recognition work?
nickvu2
Veteran
The conventional way of doing it, which is how they name the cases, it to 1) identify the OLL case, 2) identify the COLL case by looking at the U stickers (or U & F stickers depending on the OLL) of the 4 top layer corners, 3) identify the relationship between the FU, FUR, RUF and RU stickers.
But basically I just recognize the case by its bars, headlights, checker patterns, etc. Oh, and all this is done with only looking at the R, F and U faces. I'm still working on it, but I'm confident I can get recognition to equal that of PLL.
But basically I just recognize the case by its bars, headlights, checker patterns, etc. Oh, and all this is done with only looking at the R, F and U faces. I'm still working on it, but I'm confident I can get recognition to equal that of PLL.
I never realized that true ZZLL involved so many algs(133-181). Is that what makes most use OLL/PLL or variation rather than ZZLL and with that many more algs can ZZLL recognition compete with 78 alg CFOP?
MalusDB
Regular
It feels to me like you would really need to spend a lifetime to achieve the level of mastery in ZZ that can be achieved in a few years hard graft with CFOP. At the cutting edge I don't think ZZ holds any advantage over CFOP for singles. I mean Theres guys out there who have unoffical 4.xx times. It isn't realistic to think that zz can top that without it being considered equally anomalous. I think ZZ is a good, viable method, but its not worth the effort if you wanna achieve only blistering speed. Your time could be better spent. Then again what do I know? Not hating btw, I'm really interested in ZZ, hence me being here
nickvu2
Veteran
I wouldn't say ZZ-b is any more legitimate than the other variations.
Yup
More algs requires more practice. Can ZZLL recognition times match that of CFOP? I'm betting a lot of time and energy that it can! I do daily flashcard drills on Anki, which I consider way more effective than only doing solves and hoping for all the cases to show up.
You very well could be right about that! But isn't that what speedcubing is all about!? Investing absurd amounts of time into gaining even the slightest edge...into gaining the hope of having the slightest edge. lol Yes, ZZ-b is ridiculous, and that's why I'm drawn to it XD I won't be doing any sub-4.xx solves, but I do think it will take me, personally, further than CFOP could. Nevertheless, Malus, you make excellent points!It feels to me like you would really need to spend a lifetime to achieve the level of mastery in ZZ that can be achieved in a few years hard graft with CFOP. At the cutting edge I don't think ZZ holds any advantage over CFOP for singles. I mean Theres guys out there who have unoffical 4.xx times. It isn't realistic to think that zz can top that without it being considered equally anomalous. I think ZZ is a good, viable method, but its not worth the effort if you wanna achieve only blistering speed. Your time could be better spent. Then again what do I know? Not hating btw, I'm really interested in ZZ, hence me being here
Mal
Veteran
Wheres a good place I could learn ZZ? Because I just want to learn half of it. Like no ZZLL just OLL and PLL. Like what asmallkitten does.
a small kitten
Veteran
Similar threads
