[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

I know it's really tempting to learn more algs in the attempt to get faster. I learned OLL/PLL when I was still 40s at CFOP, and after switching to ZZ learned ZZLL. If there is one piece of advice I would give to a new (or newish) speedcuber, it's this. Assuming your goal is to be fast, spend your time practicing look ahead and turn speed (ie. EOline+F2L), not learning tons of algs. Now if you enjoy learning algs, then by all means go for it, but don't assume like I did that it will make you fast. In fact, I would argue that it could be a barrier to getting fast. Rather, I would suggest learning algs AFTER you've maxed out on speed...15-20s average. Of course that's just one person's opinion =)
 
Pyjam said:
You do not recommend COLL but you recommend Winter Variation !!!

I'm more than surprised. I'm shocked.
Click to expand...

At least, I recommend learning the easy winter variation cases, where a 3 or 4 move investment can cause an OLL skip.
 
I thought about learning winter and summer variation, but I decided it is quicker to do MGLS. If your doing ZZ, ELS would be an extremely easy step, and you would still use CLS like normal. The only problem with this is the alg coun't but I think it would be worth it.
 
I've learned CLS algs in the past (the set with a corner already inserted with wrong orientation). The algs are not difficult, but I find that they come up so rarely in actual solves that my recognition is horrible.

Anyway, does anyone have tips on quick recognition of rare cases? Just doing solves doesn't really work for me.
 
Thanks again aznanimedude for the ZZ-d info and some variants that approaches ZZ-d. I'm happy with this method! this is definitely my main method, drop another barrier of times today I hit sub 30s solves after 35 days learning ZZ luckily got some sub 20s solves (either PLL skip or normal solves) but not that fluent, on the average I was at 26s. Also today I completed all the 21 PLLs (yehey to that) moving on studying COLL cases, H cases was easy so I grab a look and memo the 4 algs.
Still I approximates the 2 line edges position after I EO totally not a EOLine but a EO then Line, for me it is difficult to incorporate those line edges in an EO, is there any suggestions about this?

Thanks again in advance!
 
BaMiao said:
I've learned CLS algs in the past (the set with a corner already inserted with wrong orientation). The algs are not difficult, but I find that they come up so rarely in actual solves that my recognition is horrible.

Anyway, does anyone have tips on quick recognition of rare cases? Just doing solves doesn't really work for me.
Click to expand...

Flashcards. I like Anki.
 
YddEd said:
Erm.. whats MGLS?
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The combination of ELS (Edge of the Last Slot) with CLS (Corner of the Last Slot). ELS places the last edge in the last slot while orienting top edges. In ZZ, you just put the edge into the slot because edges are already oriented. CLS places the corner to the last slot after the edge is placed and it orients top layer corners while doing so. So basically, you've got OLL done when you finish the last slot. For more info such as alg count or avg moves, you can find it on the wiki. Here are the links:

http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/ELS

http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/CLS
 
elrog said:
The combination of ELS (Edge of the Last Slot) with CLS (Corner of the Last Slot). ELS places the last edge in the last slot while orienting top edges. In ZZ, you just put the edge into the slot because edges are already oriented. CLS places the corner to the last slot after the edge is placed and it orients top layer corners while doing so. So basically, you've got OLL done when you finish the last slot. For more info such as alg count or avg moves, you can find it on the wiki. Here are the links:

http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/ELS

http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/CLS
Click to expand...
What's your best time with it? I just wanna see which LL method is fast.
 
I have not learned it, but I've been seriously considering it. If I go with fridrich or ZZ for my main method, I'll be learning this. I still might go with Roux or some other methods I've been playing with. I also probably wouldn't be the best cantadite for a testing of its speed as I don't focus completely on speedcubing.
 
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YddEd said:
What's your best time with it? I just wanna see which LL method is fast.
Click to expand...

All of them have something to offer, but you won't be fast solely because of the method.

My COLL+EPLL times with ZZ are sub-6, yet my ZZ times are around 22-23.
The LL algs can easily be drilled. There are tools out there to generate COLL scrambles and such.
But my speed suffers mostly because of my lack of ZZF2L proficiency. That just has to be practiced through solving.
I am much more comfortable with the F2L style of CFOP (and learning tons of algs). It is why I prefer VHF2L > COLL > EPLL.

I have actually talked to the creator of MGLS and he says it works pretty well with ZZ. Most of the algs for it are 2-gen so it the are fast to execute.
COLL has pretty easy recognition and EPLL has amazingly easy recognition. Sometimes I can see what the case is before I finish the COLL alg.
OCLL+PLL even has it's merits, but I hate half of the PLL cases.

What you should really do is mess around with all of them and pick your favorite. This site is a great resource for algs and methods. Dig around and find one that you are genuinely interested in.
But in the end pick ZBLL, that's the best.
 
Hello fellow ZZ solvers, I have scramble generated by laire.fi/jarcs
B2 F U2 L' R U' L' U B' F' D' F' D' U2 B2 R F2 B2 L' B2 F2 U B' L' B' (white top green front)

x2//pre-inspect
R B' U F' D2 EOL
L' U' L U2 R' U2 R2//
R L' U' R' U' R//-completed my right block, sorry I was sick at block building
y2//--rotating to make my right block to be the left block, examing my 4 corners kinda lucky that all of them are correctly positioned relative to each other so I can ZZ-d?
U2 R2 U' R2 U2 R' //
R' U2 R U2 R' U' R//---completed my right block, :( failed at block building
U' R U R' U R U' R' U R U' R' U R U2 R'---OCLL 2-gen
EPLL 2-gen

Since I have 4 corners correctly positioned relative to each other I use 2-gen to solve the whole cube to generate accidentally a ZZ-d solve?

Edit: I don't know 1L-LL for ZZ-d so I took 2L-LL approach namely OCLL-PLL in above solve :)
 
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Out of OCLL/PLL and COLL/EPLL COLL/EPLL would be my last choice. Recognition can be quick with all of them if practiced. It is just what you're used to. They can also all be preformed quickly, and this again is just what you're used to.

One reason I don't like COLL/EPLL is that, when your starting off, OCLL/PLL has less algorithms and gives you somewhere to start. You can start off doing EP and CP seperately. You can't seperate steps out like that to start off COLL with less algorithms because you won't be able to use the same algorithms later.

Another reason I prefer OCLL/PLL over COLL EPLL is that for experienced users, you have the option of Summer Variation, Winter Variation, CLS, or partial corner control, all of which are good ways to start on the last layer during F2L. Using partial corner control for COLL is impractical because there are really good algs and there are mediocre algs for each orientation case, so affecting the orientation case doesn't benefit you much.

I've heard the arguement for COLL/EPLL because you have a good chance for EPLL skip, but using partial corner control which s extremely easy, you can get CO skips atleast just as often.

There is one reason that I'd consider COLL/EPLL over COLL/PLL. This only applies if you solve larger cubes with reduction though. After doing COLL, it is very possible that you could solve both the permutation and orientation parities with EPLL without a massive number of algs. If you are strictly a 3x3 solver, this doesn't apply to you.
 
elrog said:
Out of OCLL/PLL and COLL/EPLL COLL/EPLL would be my last choice. Recognition can be quick with all of them if practiced. It is just what you're used to. They can also all be preformed quickly, and this again is just what you're used to.

One reason I don't like COLL/EPLL is that, when your starting off, OCLL/PLL has less algorithms and gives you somewhere to start. You can start off doing EP and CP seperately. You can't seperate steps out like that to start off COLL with less algorithms because you won't be able to use the same algorithms later.

Another reason I prefer OCLL/PLL over COLL EPLL is that for experienced users, you have the option of Summer Variation, Winter Variation, CLS, or partial corner control, all of which are good ways to start on the last layer during F2L. Using partial corner control for COLL is impractical because there are really good algs and there are mediocre algs for each orientation case, so affecting the orientation case doesn't benefit you much.

I've heard the arguement for COLL/EPLL because you have a good chance for EPLL skip, but using partial corner control which s extremely easy, you can get CO skips atleast just as often.

There is one reason that I'd consider COLL/EPLL over COLL/PLL. This only applies if you solve larger cubes with reduction though. After doing COLL, it is very possible that you could solve both the permutation and orientation parities with EPLL without a massive number of algs. If you are strictly a 3x3 solver, this doesn't apply to you.
Click to expand...

Another approach, used by many ZZers, is partial COLL. Many, like me, use COLL on everything but sune/antisune cases. It is also common to just learn the pi/H cases, because the recognition is easy. Of course, you would have to know full PLL for this to work, but for those of us who've switched from CFOP, this isn't an issue. This means you have to learn more algs, but COLLs aren't that hard to learn, and I find that most of them are pretty easy. You can still use partial winter variation or CLS if you'd like, too. That's one of the fun things about ZZ- so many ways to make your solves more efficient.
 
Getting back into zz. I avg 26. With almost no practice for months. I plan out eo but usually not line, unless it is 2 or 4 bad, in inspection. My ll is pretty good. I know 3/4 h COLLs. Probably only going to do H's. Maybe pi's. I do some CFOP f2l instead. Especially for the pairs. If there is a nice case like DR and DFR paired, i will just attach it to FR. But besides that, mostly fridrich f2l.

My eoline is about 6-7. My ll is about 6-7. My f2l is 12-14. Which should be my major focus for improving?
 
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TheNextFeliks said:
Getting back into zz. I avg 26. With almost no practice for months. I plan out eo but usually not line, unless it is 2 or 4 bad, in inspection. My ll is pretty good. I know 3/4 h COLLs. Probably only going to do H's. Maybe pi's. I do some CFOP f2l instead. Especially for the pairs. If there is a nice case like DR and DFR paired, i will just attach it to FR. But besides that, mostly fridrich f2l.

My eoline is about 6-7. My ll is about 6-7. My f2l is 12-14. Which should be my major focus for improving?
Click to expand...

F2L. Focus on forcing yourself to form the types of pairs that you are uncomfortable with forming. After a while of this, you will become just as comfortable with both of them and automatically choose the best one. Don't reinforce bad habits.
 
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