[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[nickvu2]

@CubeRoots: yes, sune/anti-sune + PLL.

@Pyjam: right handed, haha, why do you ask?

 

[Pyjam]

You seem to like L/L' a lot.

Your alg : F' L' U L U2 L U2 L2 U' L2 U' L' U F
My alg : F (U R' U') (R2 U' R2' U2' R U2') (R U R') F'

Your alg : (M x U' L U' L' U' R' U' L U' R U' R') or (L U L' U R' U L U R U R' U R L')
My alg : U2' (R U R' U r' F R) (F r U r' F r R')

I built my own list for ZZLL Pi only. I used your document, some other sources, and my own transpositions.
If you're interested, it's here : http://www.casimages.com/f.php?f=120430125930111950.pdf
It's in french, but it will not be a problem. Ask me otherwise.

Thanks for your work (phasing + ZZLL). :tu

 

[nickvu2]

I really like the first one! The second, not as much. My right hand doesn't seem to be that much faster, so I'm ok with Ls.

Thanks for the PDF; looking forward to seeing the other cases =)

 

[CubeRoots]

do you think a beginner could handle learning EO, Line, intuitive ZZF2L, then a beginners style last layer (permute edges permute corners orient corners)? Thinking of teaching my friends ZZ. All they would need is sune for edges niklas for corners and sexy for orienting corners so to me it seems like a good idea

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

do you think a beginner could handle learning EO, Line, intuitive ZZF2L, then a beginners style last layer (permute edges permute corners orient corners)? Thinking of teaching my friends ZZ. All they would need is sune for edges niklas for corners and sexy for orienting corners so to me it seems like a good idea

I have tried this, teaching EO is really quite hard, and they really need to know intuitive F2L to be able to do ZZF2L, else they'll kill EO using beginners algs.

 

[aznanimedude]

yeah depends on how much of a beginner you're trying to teach

EO is something that needs a little bit of understanding of the cube.

ZZF2L is something i feel you can play around with though as long as when you're messing around you make sure to restrict yourself to only LUR, you won't ruin EO and it'll help you understand how do to insertions from different angles, of course understanding F2L helps too

 

[nickvu2]

do you think a beginner could handle learning EO, Line, intuitive ZZF2L, then a beginners style last layer (permute edges permute corners orient corners)? Thinking of teaching my friends ZZ. All they would need is sune for edges niklas for corners and sexy for orienting corners so to me it seems like a good idea

I taught my friend ZZ. He had zero experience with cubing. We worked on it for an hour every week and it took us somewhere around 6 weeks. So yes, it's doable, but not necessarily easy.

 

[CubeRoots]

Looking for some advice on my cubing, unfortunately I have no cam so i'm gonna try and explain where I am upto. I did a 19.73 average of 12 earlier, and got a friend to record split times.

I spent: 2.94 on eoline, 11 on zzf2l and 5.8 on LL (ocll/pll) on average. where in my solves need most work if i am to be sub15?
What should a typical sub15 zz solve consist of?

are there any good pages cept cride5s?

is it wise to begin learning coll at this stage? i already know headlights cases.

my f2l is done in 25-30 moves, normally. is this good?

one final thing. my Ja Jb E F and V plls are aweful, the rest i can sub3 with easy. is there any you recomend?

 

[aznanimedude]

i'm slower than you are so take with a grain of salt but here's my input:

on PLLs for E F and V (i like these ones, they just feel really nice to me fingertrick-wise and i changed mine from what they were before because i didn't like em and with these i have no x y and z rotations, well unless you count the initial rotations for the E perm)

E: y' x' R U' R' D R U R' D' R U R' D R U' R' D' x

F: R' U R U' R2 F' U' F U R F R' F' R2

V: R' U R' d' R' F' R2 U' R' U R' F R F

as for pages, i've found BOCA to be VERY helpful (has nice COLLs and also good ZZLLs on there too) hope this helps.

link: http://boca.bee.pl/index.php?l=en

and my guess would be the place to reduce time to most is the same as in CFOP, it's in the F2L, where just better lookahead and transistion from EOLine to F2L.

 

[uvafan]

@CubeRoots I'm slower than you but I do have some advice, seeing as I can sub-3 both J perms and I just learned a new F perm.

For me at least, the best Ja, Jb, and F perms are:

Ja: (y) R' U L' U2 R U' R' U2 L R U'

Jb: R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U'

F: (hold full bar on left) R' U' F' (t perm without F' at end) U R

I also had a few questions. My time splits:

EOLine:5.4 secs
ZZF2L:13.35 secs
LL(OCLL/PLL):7.18 secs

1. I'm going competition on June 16. Is the best thing I could do to shave time off fast just doing a ton of solves? Or should I do something else.

2. I learned ZZ about a month and a week ago. Is it too early for me to start attempting to do the EOLine Bld? I normally just plan out EO but not line.

3. Any specific tips/exercises for working on ZZF2L lookahead?

Finally, after the comp, I would like to start learning either COLL/EPLL or ZZLL. If I learned COLL/EPLL, I would like to use it just as a transition to ZZLL. Should I learn COLL/EPLL? Or go straight to ZZLL?

Thanks in advance for advice.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Also use E and V perms that azanimedude uses. You can choose from our F perms.

 

[aznanimedude]

i'd personally go COLL/EPLL first because it's less algorithms and you pick it up quicker. although that being said at the same time while you're doing that might as well since the idea of going to ZZLL is in your mind, make sure while you solve you also do phasing during solves so that it becomes second nature, even if you're not immediately doing ZZLLs.

 

[CubeRoots]

aznanimedude, thanks for those algs and the site. gonna give your F and V a go.

uvafan, thankyou also i love the Js they are better than sune + niklas and wv000 u2 wv000.

with regards to your questions:

1. yes, do lots, maybe avg50 every day. however for you working hard on eoline for a week will do you a lot of good, get line edges planned better and it will let you lookahead for first pair and hould give a nice flow for the whole solve. also drill your ll, 7.80 is not cool. aim for sub 4 eoline and sub 6 ll.

2. try it on easier cases

3. not sure

4. i think you wanna learn coll first, just so you can start getting used to recog, thats what i plan to do

good look in comp do zz proud!

 

[uvafan]

Thanks for the responses! I think I'll start learning the COLLs after the comp like you guys suggested. And @ Cuberoots the reason for my not very good last layer is that I finished learning PLL like a week ago. So yes, I'll drill my last layer.

 

[aznanimedude]

yessir

and good luck

also, number 4 of what cuberoots said, i agree
learning COLL helps with understanding what you should be looking to detect per case, once you have that then its easy to add one more sticker to the LL recognition for ZZLL, at least that's how i see it happening once i finish my COLLs (all that's left for me are Pi and the Sune + Anti-Sune), also code recognition is your friend =D (http://jmbaum.110mb.com/coll.htm COLLs + explanation of "code" recognition)

 

[mDiPalma]

the best way to improve lookahead is to solve with one hand.

 

[uvafan]

the best way to improve lookahead is to solve with one hand.

Do you recommend any videos or anything showing how to turn with one hand? Also, should I use my left hand even if I'm right handed? And if you don't mind, why is that the case? Thanks.

 

[mDiPalma]

Phil Yu

 

[aznanimedude]

best guess is because unless your are asmallkitten, you turn slower with one hand than you do with 2. slower turning -> easier lookahead

 

[Pyjam]

the best way to improve lookahead is to solve with one hand.

the VERY best way to improve lookahead is to solve with your feet… in darkness… and under water, etc.

Maybe I'm a mutant but I can turn slowly while using my both hands.

 

[Pyjam]

Looking for some advice on my cubing, unfortunately I have no cam so i'm gonna try and explain where I am up to. I did a 19.73 average of 12 earlier, and got a friend to record split times.

I spent: 2.94 on eoline, 11 on zzf2l and 5.8 on LL (ocll/pll) on average. where in my solves need most work if i am to be sub15?
What should a typical sub15 ZZ solve consist of?

I think you could be a little faster on ZZF2L.

is it wise to begin learning COLL at this stage? i already know headlights cases.

Yes, do it. Learn COLL that preserve phasing.

my f2l is done in 25-30 moves, normally. is this good?

25-30 moves including EOL is fine.

one final thing. my Ja Jb E F and V PLL are awful, the rest i can sub3 with easy. is there any you recommend?

Suggestions:
E : (x') (R U' R') D (R U R') D' (R U R') D (R U' R') D'
F : M' U2' r U' l U2' r' U r' R2 U2' R2'
J : R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U'
V : R U' R U R' D R D' R D U' R2' U R2 D' R2'

2. I learned ZZ about a month and a week ago. Is it too early for me to start attempting to do the EOLine Bld? I normally just plan out EO but not line.

It's never too early to begin.
Start with easy cases: 2 and 4 bad edges, and sometimes 8.
6, 10, and 12 are harder, as you know.

3. Any specific tips/exercises for working on ZZF2L lookahead?

Go slow. Learn how to identify corners with 2 facets.

Finally, after the comp, I would like to start learning either COLL/EPLL or ZZLL. If I learned COLL/EPLL, I would like to use it just as a transition to ZZLL. Should I learn COLL/EPLL? Or go straight to ZZLL?

I think you have no choice, except if you can learn 120 alg in a day.
Learn COLL that preserve phasing.
Start playing with phasing.
Learn ZZLL cases in <R, U>