[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[aznanimedude]

the fastest one i know is cride5, and only because i watched his youtube channel every once in awhile

also cuberoots, it'll take more than a month to do a full ZZ switch, EOLine is much different from Cross, even though the movecount is similar

it's taken me until now to bring my times down to when i did CFOP, and it's been 2 months (technically 2 months + 1 day <__<). Still not that great with EOLine, but it's getting better and better as time goes, EOLine is certainly a harder animal than i originally thought it would be. Not that i was an awesome CFOP user before i switched :| (22-23ish average, i'm like a 25-26~ ZZ Solver now)

i must say though, not having to really do cube rotations is really convenient, like for me personally it's REALLLLLLLY convenient (i still haven't finished learning all my COLLs though QQ)

 

[CubeRoots]

the fastest one i know is cride5, and only because i watched his youtube channel every once in awhile

also cuberoots, it'll take more than a month to do a full ZZ switch, EOLine is much different from Cross, even though the movecount is similar

it's taken me until now to bring my times down to when i did CFOP, and it's been 2 months (technically 2 months + 1 day <__<). Still not that great with EOLine, but it's getting better and better as time goes, EOLine is certainly a harder animal than i originally thought it would be. Not that i was an awesome CFOP user before i switched :| (22-23ish average, i'm like a 25-26~ ZZ Solver now)

i must say though, not having to really do cube rotations is really convenient, like for me personally it's REALLLLLLLY convenient (i still haven't finished learning all my COLLs though QQ)

Ahhh do you want to learn COLL+EPLL for the last layer? I went for the winter variation, almost learnt all the algs now.
how fast were you after a month? do you feel like you will eventually get better than you would with cfop?

 

[Pyjam]

EOL isn't easy, but efficient blockbuilding isn't neither. I don't know for you, but I think the average CFOP cuber needs more than a month to be accustomed to it.

Also, for each COLL there is a case in R,U. I suggest you learn all the ZZLL or ZBLL for these cases. Some are really easy, like :

Pi:
(R' U' R U) (R U2' R' U' R U' R2') U2' R
(R U R' U') (R' U2' R U R' U R2') U2' R'
(R U) (R2' U') (R2 U') (R2' U2') (R2 U') (R' U R U2' R')
AntiSune + U’ + AntiSune

H:
U’ + AntiSune + U’ + back Sune
U + AntiSune back + U + Sune
Sune + U’ + back AntiSune

U:
U + AntiSune right + AntiSune left
Sune back + Sune
U2 + Sune + Sune back

T:
U’ + Sune + U2 + Sune back
AntiSune + AntiSune back
U2 + AntiSune back + AntiSune

L:
U2 + 3x AntiSune
U2 (R U2' R' U2) (R' U' R U R U') (R' U2 R' U2' R)
AntiSune + U2 + Sune
Sune + U2 + AntiSune

 

[aznanimedude]

Ahhh do you want to learn COLL+EPLL for the last layer? I went for the winter variation, almost learnt all the algs now.
how fast were you after a month? do you feel like you will eventually get better than you would with cfop?

i chose COLL+EPLL because of the idea that later on if i wanted i could then transition from that to ZZLL + phasing or just full on ZBLL (since you end up with all the edges oriented anyway)

after a month i think i was at like....35~seconds, so still like 10 seconds above my average, but since then i've just gotten more used to doing EOLines and such.

definately takes more than a month to really be fast at any method

 

[aznanimedude]

double post sorry buuuuuuuut i'm curious

for all you ZZ-ers out there, when you do your EO line, do you have a DB/DF preference or are you color neutral in that aspect? i'm just wondering because i'm Blue/Green for mine but i'm wondering if any of you have insight on whether not having a color preference makes for easier EOLine

 

[CubeRoots]

double post sorry buuuuuuuut i'm curious

for all you ZZ-ers out there, when you do your EO line, do you have a DB/DF preference or are you color neutral in that aspect? i'm just wondering because i'm Blue/Green for mine but i'm wondering if any of you have insight on whether not having a color preference makes for easier EOLine

DFDB. I like having the same routine every time and tbh in inspection i wouldnt manage to see the easiest of the two in time. normally take 12/13 seconds on inspection

 

[a small kitten]

I always solve blue front / yellow top. I can notice the easier of the two in time but the fixed orientation gives me a better sense of where to place blocks during the f2l.

 

[Petro Leum]

I just switched (or am still switching) from cfop yesterday, but i will certainly stick to ZZ! It has so much more potential.
oh, and i always solve with yellow on top, but trying to be neutral on the F/B colour

 

[mDiPalma]

I always solve blue front / yellow top. I can notice the easier of the two in time but the fixed orientation gives me a better sense of where to place blocks during the f2l.

Ya with OH I can solve in my natural orientation (WG) or in a y2 from that. That's only to make eoline more ergonomic though. With 2H, ergonomics falls second to efficiency during the line phase and recognition during f2l.

 

[pdilla]

Phil Yu uses ZZ exclusively and is one of the best OH solvers in the world.

ah yeah I remember him. I wasn't thinking about OH in my head when I responded however.

 

[uvafan]

I would LOVE to see someone learn ZZ as their first method of solving, and then extrapolate to the future to see their speeds, as I'm sure that this plays a big factor in ZZ's usage.

I don't really count, but I switched to ZZ when I wasn't very good with CFOP (averaged 45 seconds w/4LLL).
I switched a little over two weeks ago, and it's an awesome method.
I already average about 35 seconds with ZZ , and I'm improving fast!

 

[mDiPalma]

ive been thinking of a new zz variant.

in the first step, you orient the edges but only place the DB edge instead of the line. this will not only save moves (placing one less line piece), but it will be easier to understand, inspect, and find an ergonomic solution. it will also let you choose to either place DB or place DF in the back followed by a u2 move.

in the second step, you build the f2l just like usual. the advantage is that you have use of the F2 move to insert any pair or setup an insert. you may think that this could be slow and disadvantageous if one of your E-slice edges was stuck in the DF spot, and you needed it to finish f2l. however, because you can put the edge at DF right back into the top in any way you want (M' U2 M for example), you can setup a 3 move insert every time. So even this potential disadvantage proves not that bad, and may even be helpful, in some cases.

then you do COLL. im not sure if having any empty slot at DF will let you do any shorter/more ergonomic algorithms, but this is not intended to be an advantage over regular zz.

then you do ep5. there are a few more algs (16 as opposed to 4), but they take 7.5 M+U moves on average as opposed to like 8 or whatever is the average for M+U epll. they are easy to recognize, in my opinion, and are very fast. additionally, if you got good at this method, you could choose different COLL algorithms to, say, solve atleast 2 edges while solving the corners, which would reduce your ep5 alg count to 5 algs with a 7 move average and lightning fast recognition.

and if your DF edge somehow manages to place itself during your solve, you revert back to regular zz and solve from there. if this happens, you can still be happy that you saved a couple moves during the eoline phase, because you dragged your DF edge in conveniently during the rest of your solve. you can even pretend to yourself that you did it on purpose.

i think you may save a few moves on average with this. i sometimes do this variation when planning the entire eoline is just too difficult. i know ep5 from my wanderings through the columns first universe.

here is a sample solve:
D U' F B' U' R B' D' R' U2 B F L D R F D2 R' B2 U' F U' D2 B2 R

x'
D l' U D' B D' (eo db 6)
R U R2 (right square 3)
L2 U2 (left square 2)
L' U L' U2 L U2 L' U2 L U L' (left pair 11)
U2 R' U' R U2 (right pair 5)
R' U R U2 R' L' U' L U' L' U2 L (coll 12)
U M2 U M2 U M U2 M' (ep5 8)
=47, but could have been much less if i didnt have such a crappy left pair.

good variation?

 

[Pyjam]

Hi,

Your solution doesn't solve the cube. There's something wrong with the COLL.
And it's 54 HTM, not 50.

After (left square 2), R' F2 L' U R U2 R' U' R U2 R' U' L' (+13) is a better continuation.

I have no opinion about your method, but may I ask you your average? Thanks.

 

[Pyjam]

Another contituation that better fits your example:
After (left square 2) :
L2 R' U2 R U L U2 L' U' R' : (right block)
U' L U L' U' L U' L' U' L U' L' U (+23 = 34) : left block + phase + COLL-skip
M U M2 U2 M2 U M' (+11 = 45) : solved

 

[oll+phase+sync]

good variation?

I like your Idea, but Im not a regluar ZZ User ( so I maybe I over apreaciate one less piece in EOLINE)

OH users may not like your idea, because of all the M-moves in EP5.

Personally maybe I would prefer

1. Build a 2x2x2 + 1 D-edge (XCross without Full )
2. Fill § SLots
3. CLL
4. Place two EDges (one being DF) or Place DF while orienting all others or just orient all
5 EPLL or Last-3-Edges or EP5

but thats not ZZ related anymore.

 

[mDiPalma]

Hi,

Your solution doesn't solve the cube. There's something wrong with the COLL.
And it's 54 HTM, not 50.

After (left square 2), R' F2 L' U R U2 R' U' R U2 R' U' L' (+13) is a better continuation.

I have no opinion about your method, but may I ask you your average? Thanks.

1. ya sorry. i swapped out a U' for a U by accident. it should work now.
2. lol i dont believe in HTM. STM is where it's at. that puts your continuation at 41 moves, which is very respectable
3. i average 16~17 with zz

your continuation is very good. i just found a scramble, speedsolved it, and wrote down that solution afterwards. there wasn't much thinking involved.

I like your Idea, but Im not a regluar ZZ User ( so I maybe I over apreaciate one less piece in EOLINE)

OH users may not like your idea, because of all the M-moves in EP5.

you're right, this is terrible for one handed.

but this variation would primarily be intended to give more flexibility in the eoline phase. because you only need to place one line piece, you might be led to perform eoline in a y2, z2, or x2 from your base orientation. to be honest, it doesnt hurt my recognition at all to solve in WG, WB, YG, or YB.

i think this variation compounds all the advantages of zz, without restricting your blockbuilding potential to exclude F2 moves right off the bat, and while saving you a few moves along the way through clever block decisions and step blurring (as pyjam pointed out).

 

[CubeRoots]

Just got my first sub 20 average with zz, very pleased. However, I have some questions:

what is the average movecount in optimal HTM of ZZLL? is COLL a subset of ZZLL? whose ZZLL algs are the best? (in your opinion)

Finally, I know winter/summer variation algs, and was wondering if anyone used this particular variation of ZZ... EOLINE, ZZF2L minus last slot (this is where it is different) then either phase insert followed by ZZLL OR (if you have one of the annoying phasing cases) just do winter/summer variation then PLL. This is the method I aim to be using by UK open so just wondered if it is used/whether anyone can see flaws in the idea.

 

[nickvu2]

Of course I'm biased, but I like my alg list the best. It's may be the only list with speed optimal algs, though there are a couple that I'm still not happy with. Oh, and it's everything except sune.

COLL normally disregards edges, so any of these algs that leave edges phased can be used for ZZLL.

 

[CubeRoots]

Thanks for that I likee your Doc and the algs look good judging from one i just tried. I take it you just perform sune then PLL? I still fancy learning the ZZLL cases, even for sune.

 

[Pyjam]

Of course I'm biased, but I like my alg list the best. It's may be the only list with speed optimal algs, though there are a couple that I'm still not happy with.

Are you left handed, Nick ?