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[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

Egide

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I am still learning some algs but I do know a fair bit. I know all WV and SV as well as a bunch of CLS cases. In total I think I know about 200 to 220 algs so far. But the hard thing for me is recognition but I am getting there.
This variant is awsome for OH, but having to learn to do the algs on all 4 slots is a big turn off for me. Maybe if you intentionally solve the same slot last, but this approach limits you in blockbuilding. What is your approach?
 

Baku

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How many people are sub-10 with ZZ for 2H(obv) on here? What variant do you use?

Even sub-15; how many sub-15 peeps are on here? Which variant of ZZ do you use?
On a normal day I average about 15.5 seconds with ZZ in its most basic form. I just use the 7 OCLL algs, most of PLL (don't know it all yet for some reason), and about 5 or 6 COLLs.
 

NZCuber

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This variant is awsome for OH, but having to learn to do the algs on all 4 slots is a big turn off for me. Maybe if you intentionally solve the same slot last, but this approach limits you in blockbuilding. What is your approach?
I use to leave the front two slots for last so my block building wasn't as limited but now I am able to adjust the algs so I can execute my algs from all 4 slots. I don't learn new algs but just adjust the ones I know. Some of the algs may seem hard for that approach but I do just fine.
 

MrMan

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I'm really strugling with eo, but for the f2l ZZ is awesome. I have a some problem for F2L as there is two whole secton to look at but it's crazy fast.
Although because of eo I'm averaging 35-40s as I can't fully predict eo...
I just made an average with cfop and did 20.61 on best, 23.89 ao15 and 28.78 ao12
So my question is ho can I work ?
Take 30s 1 min and try to plan the whole eo each time until it goes down to 10s, do it blindfolded ?
 

AlphaSheep

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So my question is ho can I work ?
Take 30s 1 min and try to plan the whole eo each time until it goes down to 10s, do it blindfolded ?
Try plan 3-4 moves during inspection (rather than the whole thing), start the timer, do the EOline, and then stop the timer. At first, it will take 20-30 seconds to count all the bad edges, and then 20-30s to do the EOline. Do an average of 100 of just EOLine and see what it takes. I take 5-10s of inspection to count edges and plan only 3-4 moves, and then 5-7s to do the EOLine. I'm finding with lots of practice that it's more a case of becoming familiar with a whole lot of EO cases that come up often, rather than planning the whole thing. Then in inspection, I can see that 2 or 3 moves can usually set up a case that I know well, and then can solve that while roughly tracking the line edges (I actually just try to keep them on opposite sides of the cube). It's not the most efficient way, but I usually solve EOLine in around 7-10 moves, which isn't bad at all.
 

MrMan

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Try plan 3-4 moves during inspection (rather than the whole thing)
I'm definitely trying that ! I can recognise them pretty well now, depending on edges and colour it's from instant to 1 second I would say.
So the real problem is executing it and tracking pieces and I think trying planning just a little bit and then continue will help me, thank you !
 

mDiPalma

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I'm definitely trying that ! I can recognise them pretty well now, depending on edges and colour it's from instant to 1 second I would say.
So the real problem is executing it and tracking pieces and I think trying planning just a little bit and then continue will help me, thank you !
FYI, I probably plan the entire EOLine less than 30% of the time. Usually I just plan EO, separate the line edges (to opposite faces R/L, F/B) and try to preserve any F2L pairs that come up. I average sub-12 with ZZ.

Every good speedsolving advancement comes from the combination of multiple steps into 1, or from the amelioration of a later step during an earlier one. So why is it a good idea to blindly solve exclusively the EOLine every solve? In my opinion it isn't. Surely it's better to combine the EOLine step with the F2L step. The result is an ergonomic, rotationless, even mindless version of Petrus.

You don't need to be able to plan the EOLine during 15 seconds of inspection. And in my opinion, you shouldn't make that your habit just because it's the way the method steps are organized. You should be flexible to take advantage of easy cases.

Does anyone else feel similarly?
 

MrMan

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You don't need to be able to plan the EOLine during 15 seconds of inspection. And in my opinion, you shouldn't make that your habit just because it's the way the method steps are organized. You should be flexible to take advantage of easy cases.
Well I think I'll try both to see what I think from my proposal and yours. As for now I can't decide.
With the progress I made just since I posted 4 hours ago I think I will be able pretty soon to plan it entirely. Doing that I can put all my attention into look ahead for F2L.

It took me quite a while but I have been able to plan a whole cross+ a F2L(the cross was 2 moves away from EOline). And I think if I timed it, it would be my PB by far, it seemed so fast...

So I'm trying my way until I'm really good at it and then if I will be able to do both so I'll try the other way !
 

Egide

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Hey guys, l'm looking for ways to optimise blockbuilding for the second 1x2x3 and as l was going through Lar's "ZZF2L move count Analysis", l saw that 10 cases needed 14 moves to be solved (2gen). l'd like to know if there is a way of finding these cases, it seems like a good place to start.
 

lorki3

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Hey guys, l'm looking for ways to optimise blockbuilding for the second 1x2x3 and as l was going through Lar's "ZZF2L move count Analysis", l saw that 10 cases needed 14 moves to be solved (2gen). l'd like to know if there is a way of finding these cases, it seems like a good place to start.
Maybe this will help? I'm not sure. http://cube.crider.co.uk/zz.php?p=f2l#f2l_algs


Some random thoughts: It seems like it's way easier to translate 2H into OH and the other way around with the ZZ method.
The EOline is a little different, but the F2L is basically the same.

I've also noticed that for me, there's only a ~3 second difference between my 2H and OH, while when I used CFOP, the difference was about 5 seconds - there are more factors that play into this. It also seems my OH improvement has been much quicker with ZZ.
 
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Ollie

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EO Line is starting to get easier, cool

However, I've found that occasionally I can orient some of my edges to leave 2 bad edges and use a commutator to solve the rest of EO line. The thing is, as fun as it is, it's making my EO line a bit longer in terms of move count. I should stop, right? :p
 
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EO Line is starting to get easier, cool

However, I've found that occasionally I can orient some of my edges to leave 2 bad edges and use a commutator to solve the rest of EO line. The thing is, as fun as it is, it's making my EO line a bit longer in terms of move count. I should stop, right? :p
It uses a bunch of extra moves, which means that in the long run, it slows you down. Probably best for you to stop. Unless you'd rather have fun than get faster, which is perfectly valid, too.
 

lorki3

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Yeah. At first you should turn iff inspection and take as long as necessary to plan out EO(line). At first just plan EO. Later include line. Ao100 is a good idea. Just slow solving id recommend thi, not necessarily timing your solves.

To be honest, it's been 4 months since I started ZZ, and there are still times when I exceed inspection time. But that's alright^^

Also, for OH, try to solve one block at the time, like roux, unless you see a super easy pair for the other side.
It helps to get into the habit of doing that. :)
 
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adimare

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I had a breakthrough with the EO line today. Up until now I would make my plan for the EO line by keeping track of which edges were oriented and which were not; in my head, the plan would be something like "orient these 3 edges on F, leaving the top one miss oriented, move it to the back, (hmmm, this will place one of the line edges on FL), then move the miss oriented edge in DL to the back, and orient the ones in the back doing B', which will place the other line edge on BR". It was very hard to keep track of both miss oriented and line edges to figure out a good way to do the line (a lot of times it'd even be hard to figure out where the line edges would end up after EO).

What I'm doing now is first memorizing the moves I'll have to do to orient bad edges, completely disregarding the line edges. The above example becomes something like F', U2, D', B. Then, I look for the line edges and mentally execute the moves in my head while keeping track of the line edges only (oh look, turns out that if I do a B' instead of a B I can get them on opposite sides, then I'd just need to do R, L, D' to get the full EO line). Got an 18.13 ao12 after a few tries of using this approach, which included a 14.37 single (ZZ PB for me), I'm only ~2 sec slower with ZZ than CFOP now, and as long as I'm sub 20 I'm happy so it's safe to say that I've officially switched to ZZ as my main method.
 

mDiPalma

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then, once u have the final moves for your eoline, use ur imagination to go through each move and visualize what the cube will look like after each one. try to see if F2L pairs are formed. if they are, think of a way to save them
 
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