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[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

AlphaSheep

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Is ZZ-d solve left block while solving CP or is it solving the last F2L case while solving CP? If it is the forner where are the algs? I already know CPLS algs have not been generated yet or posted. (CPLS solves ANY F2L case while solving CP)
A good start to using ZZ-d are the porky variations. Start with v1, which only needs two algs of 5 moves each, and then move onto v2, which involves learning to recognise 6 cases, and then picking one of 3 triggers (all of which are 3 moves or less) for each case.

V1 is so easy you can start using as soon as you've read the concept in the post. V2 takes practice and learning cases, but has much faster recognition once you're used to it.
 

LexCubing

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Like how CFOP has a list for every F2L cases is there a list of algs for solving squares in ZZ like when there are 3 pieces on top or all 3 are in the right place but the cross edge must switch w/ the F2L edge cases? Like advanced ZZF2L not multiblocking though. Sure you can do it intuitively but you can also learn from algs.
 

AlphaSheep

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Like how CFOP has a list for every F2L cases is there a list of algs for solving squares in ZZ like when there are 3 pieces on top or all 3 are in the right place but the cross edge must switch w/ the F2L edge cases? Like advanced ZZF2L not multiblocking though. Sure you can do it intuitively but you can also learn from algs.
I think you've missed the point of block building. There are hundreds of cases, and if you blindly apply algs, you miss opportunities to influence other blocks. If blind algorithmic solves are what you're after, perhaps you'll enjoy CFOP more?
 

LexCubing

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I think you've missed the point of block building. There are hundreds of cases, and if you blindly apply algs, you miss opportunities to influence other blocks. If blind algorithmic solves are what you're after, perhaps you'll enjoy CFOP more?
Dude I just wanted to see how they solve bad square/pairs. And stuff like that. Like you said there's a bunch of algs but if there's some list of multiple algs to those cases and compare my solution things will speed up. You can experiment of course but just in case someone actually list some or all of the cases you saved yourself alot of time. Also you can learn alot sometimes from optimal solutions and you can modify them to affect other pairs/squares. I don't want to do blocks blindly, I just wanted to see some optimal/good solutions and learn from it.

When I learned intuitive CFOP F2L and checked the some of optimal/weird/etc. F2L I learned how to solve cases differently.
 

AlphaSheep

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Dude I just wanted to see how they solve bad square/pairs. And stuff like that. Like you said there's a bunch of algs but if there's some list of multiple algs to those cases and compare my solution things will speed up. You can experiment of course but just in case someone actually list some or all of the cases you saved yourself alot of time. Also you can learn alot sometimes from optimal solutions and you can modify them to affect other pairs/squares. I don't want to do blocks blindly, I just wanted to see some optimal/good solutions and learn from it.

When I learned intuitive CFOP F2L and checked the some of optimal/weird/etc. F2L I learned how to solve cases differently.
What I did and I think most people do is for cases I thought were really inefficient, I've generated solutions with Cube Explorer and JARCS (well, HARCS these days). I've learned a few tricks and concepts from these, but didn't memorise the algs (I didn't even bother saving them), but for the most part my intuitive solutions that are mostly straightforward RUL block building are actually better because they are more fingertrick friendly, give easier transition into other blocks, are flexible enough to adapt to do multi slotting (or at least influence the next pair).

The single most important thing in efficient block building is to take advantage of open spaces. Algs don't take that into account.

Give some examples of cases you find too inefficient, and I'm sure people will be able to help you with decent solutions.
 

GenTheThief

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Hey guys
I was looking at zz-porky v1, and noticed the surrounding posts. I thought it would be a good idea to try my hand at it and see how I would do for EOL+F2L (near)Linear FMC. I say near linear because in some cases, I did backtrack a move without counting it because I did something stupid from absent mindedness, though ~90+ were totally linear.
Near the middle, I started using Orange Front also, if Blue Front sucked; in some cases, when I forgot which front I was solving for and put the wrong line edges in, I allowed myself to scrap the solve.

Here are my surprisingly decent results, I would love to see yours too:

solves/total: 100/100

single: best: 17.00, worst: 43.00
mean of 3: best: 25.33 (σ = 8.02) (26.00, 33.00, 17.00)
avg of 5: best: 25.67 (σ = 3.06) (17.00, 35.00, 25.00, 23.00, 29.00)
avg of 12: best: 28.80 (σ = 4.57) (40.00, 22.00, 26.00, 33.00, 17.00, 35.00, 25.00, 23.00, 29.00, 32.00, 33.00, 30.00)
avg of 50: best: 31.55 (σ = 4.08)
avg of 100: best: 32.13 (σ = 4.12)

Average: 32.13 (σ = 4.12)
Mean: 32.08

And some quick other stats:
<_ 25: 6 times
25-39: 27 times
30-34: 35
35-39: 22
>_ 40: 10 times

I forget exactly how long, but I think it took 1.5~2.5h
30.00, 40.00, 40.00, 27.00, 37.00, 35.00, 28.00, 34.00, 30.00, 27.00, 42.00, 32.00, 34.00, 21.00, 37.00, 37.00, 30.00, 31.00, 29.00, 36.00, 30.00, 28.00, 32.00, 36.00, 26.00, 31.00, 29.00, 30.00, 30.00, 26.00, 29.00, 39.00, 27.00, 29.00, 27.00, 35.00, 27.00, 33.00, 37.00, 33.00, 36.00, 37.00, 38.00, 31.00, 38.00, 27.00, 41.00, 34.00, 32.00, 41.00, 35.00, 40.00, 22.00, 26.00, 33.00, 17.00, 35.00, 25.00, 23.00, 29.00, 32.00, 33.00, 30.00, 41.00, 38.00, 34.00, 28.00, 36.00, 37.00, 29.00, 27.00, 32.00, 34.00, 32.00, 34.00, 31.00, 26.00, 29.00, 38.00, 31.00, 37.00, 31.00, 35.00, 31.00, 31.00, 29.00, 29.00, 31.00, 39.00, 29.00, 40.00, 31.00, 27.00, 31.00, 25.00, 43.00, 31.00, 41.00, 28.00, 26.00
I did not solve LL, and continued scrambling after each f2l was solved. I did however, orient LL edges during EO.
 
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2180161

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I've been trying to learn ZBLL. What is the best way to recognize? Take this setup for example: F U R U' R' U R U2 R' U' R U R' F'
I recognize the case from a y2 perspective and notice that the FU sticker is adjacent to the UFR sticker, and that FRU sticker is adjacent to the RU sticker, and that UFR is opposite of RU. Is this the proper way to recognize?
 
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I've been trying to learn ZBLL. What is the best way to recognize? Take this setup for example: F U R U' R' U R U2 R' U' R U R' F'
I recognize the case from a y2 perspective and notice that the FU sticker is adjacent to the UFR sticker, and that FRU sticker is adjacent to the RU sticker, and that UFR is opposite of RU. Is this the proper way to recognize?
I don't know this ZBLL, but what I would do is Notice that the corners in the front are both the same color and the ones in the back are opposites. Then I would see for the edges that RU edge needs to be swapped with LU.
 

2180161

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I don't know this ZBLL, but what I would do is Notice that the corners in the front are both the same color and the ones in the back are opposites. Then I would see for the edges that RU edge needs to be swapped with LU.
See, but that doesn't work, because there is another ZBLL with that COLL, where RU needs to be swapped with LU, with the setup: R U2 R2 U' R U' R' U2 F R U R U' R' F' y', which I recognize that from a y2 from that y2 that there is a bar in front, FU is adjacent to UFR, FUR is adjacent to RU and UFR is the same as RU. so, that method of recog would not work.
 

obelisk477

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See, but that doesn't work, because there is another ZBLL with that COLL, where RU needs to be swapped with LU, with the setup: R U2 R2 U' R U' R' U2 F R U R U' R' F' y', which I recognize that from a y2 from that y2 that there is a bar in front, FU is adjacent to UFR, FUR is adjacent to RU and UFR is the same as RU. so, that method of recog would not work.
For ZBLL, I wouldn't think about edge swaps -- that gets too confusing. The only information you need is 1) COLL, and 2) 2 edge stickers. So lets take your example here, the R U2 R2 alg, from the y2 recog angle. Bar in front is a fine pattern to notice, but all it really is is 1 edge stickers worth of information in addition to your COLL. Then look at RU. There are three possibilities -- it is either 1) The same color as URF, 2) The opposite color of URF, or 3) an unrelated color to URF (like green in relation to red). Each of these options corresponds to 3 different ZBLL cases
 

Wristlor

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OK some time ago there was this discussion about color neutrality. I actually went ahead and learned a second color at which I am currently around 20% slower than with my primary color (Had my first sub 10 today yay)
Here is what I have to share:

First of all the benefit seems actually there. Eventhough I would be surprised if this saves you even 1 move on average, but fingertrick-wise it can be very worth having a bad 4 case than a bad 6 case. But as you may have guessed the time you need for the inspection is kinda killing it. On average I need 14.xx secs to check both colors, which is a lot. A lot of these solves would have been +2 or even DNF.
This is also the reason why I am probably not sticking with it (only invested a few weeks anyway).
Planing ahead of the EO-Line, if you have the time, seems actually more beneficial than planing lines for a secondary color (at least to me).
 

LexCubing

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How do you guys figure out which edges are which when they're out the blind spots(DR/L and BR/L)? Is the only way is to do a R/L move? But that's inefficient since they're times a F2L case is already setup and you must undo the R/L move after checking the edge.

And also for corners when they're at DBR and DBL? No cube rotations whatsoever.
 

Rahul Tirkey

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My problem is, I have to pause between bad edges to good edges & eo line, I cannot do it together, but I love zz method Caz I don't have to rotate cube
 
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How do you guys figure out which edges are which when they're out the blind spots(DR/L and BR/L)? Is the only way is to do a R/L move? But that's inefficient since they're times a F2L case is already setup and you must undo the R/L move after checking the edge.
I personally use logic. If I see a blue sticker in my UF spot, I know it must be Yellow blue. If I am looking for a piece that has Orange on it, and I see red, I know it isn't it. I have a clear view of all the U layer edges and I use process of elimination.

Is there a recent page with ZZLL algs?
Its ZBLL, if their was one thing I could tell every cuber it would be what ZBLL is and what ZZLL is. ZZLL is last layer when you have all the edges oriented and do 1 2look alg +PLL.
Zbll is Zborowski Bruchem Last layer.

Check this out, http://www.brookscubing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Anthony-Brooks-ZBLL.pdf
 

Pyjam

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Thanks Wristlor. Nice collection.

However, I'm hoping for a restricted collection of ZZLL algs only (because it would be easier to find a specific case).

Thanks anyway.
 
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