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Truth about HaiYan zhuang

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Tyson

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In all seriousness though I really dislike how little info the WCA and this new IAC committee are willing to give us so understand people wanting to trust haiyan as he is giving us the only statements so far (however truthful they may or may not be). anyway here is to hoping the WCA will be more transparent in the future (or for 2011 reg dropping BLD as an event since it apparently fosters poor sportsmangship).
In all seriousness, don't you think some members of the WCA might be a little bit busy right now? And don't you think some members of the WCA might have day jobs, and that there might be a somewhat large event in the United States this weekend, and there are two emergencies that need to be taken care of?

Thank you, for your consideration.
 

Kirjava

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In that case, I look forward to the detailed report you'll publish after the emergencies are taken care of.

You're going to do that, right?
 

Tyson

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In that case, I look forward to the detailed report you'll publish after the emergencies are taken care of.

You're going to do that, right?
Yeah, something like that. Some people are working on the report, and it's unfortunately not a trivial matter. Translation aside, the people involved are trying to decide how exactly they want to present this. You can ask Keemy about some of the information.

I will also say though, there is information that will not be released, and there is information that is not open to me or the other board members. A lot of the testimony gathered was done under the circumstances of confidentiality. Some people who provided this testimony fear retribution from the parties involved, and so I must say, there is information that I myself do not know.

The detailed report, for the most part, will probably not be written by me. All I'll really have to do this time is comment on the action afterward, as I wasn't around for any of this.

Though, as you feel the WCA does not provide enough information on various incidents, I would be curious as to what incidents you would like more information on. The great BLD cheating incident of 2007 was done by a minor, and thus the detailed report was not made public. Though, I believe all the data was pretty much online in some form or another.
 

keyan

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I've been asked by people involved to reply here. If anyone wants further information beyond this, Chinese speaking users here can find my posts at MF8.

First, responding to Haiyan's post, his words in blue:

But by the end of last year, I heard someone told me, WCA want change the BLD rules, because my speed is too fast, others have no chance. I feel it is very funny. But I really do not care if modify the rules. I will accord the rules to attend the competition.
Neither I nor anyone I know has any idea what this is about. If anyone is familiar with the WCA planning to change the rules for BLD, please tell me. Haiyan has at other points said that I was involved in the discussion, and that I defended him and prevented the rules change, and thus feels betrayed by me now. This never happened.

There have something happens during the competition on December last year. I find maybe chris only want BLD hold one round. This makes me feel maybe someone do not want me have more chance. I still look him as my friend. I am not care. But for Chinese habit maybe better chris should tell me if he have some difficulty to makes he have to give me only one round. If he explains to me I will agree him. But he says nothing to me.
Assuming this is regarding the Beijing Winter competition, I was unaware of any trouble with this competition until after the fact, but I've been told that Haiyan got in a fight with Danyang Chen, another WCA delegate for China, over the number of rounds of BLD at the competition. I never was opposed to two rounds, I in fact was never asked to hold two rounds. The organizer originally made a schedule which included only one round of BLD, I thought there was no problem with the schedule. Apparently someone did.

When I attend the Hangzhou open this year. There have a cuber who want solve 4*4*4 BLD.Only one cuber attend 4*4*4 BLD, so nobody want hold 4*4*4 BLD.Even MingZheng and chris. But finally chris give him chance to hold 4*4*4 BLD for himself.
This is regarding Yunqi Ouyang's 5x5BLD solve at Hangzhou 2010 on January 31 2010. Prior to the competition, the delegate Ming Zheng asked me about adding 5BLD for Yunqi. As the organizer originally didn't plan to hold 5BLD, I told Ming there was no reason to add the event. A few days later, Ming told me he had made a deal with Yunqi, wherein he would compete in 5BLD only, and scramble for all other events. This was more than three weeks before the competition. Even with this arrangement I was a bit unsatisfied, as I felt there was no need to add the event for one person, but in the end the arrangement worked quite well. 5BLD was held during 3BLD, when there were available judges and space for him to compete without disturbing the flow of the competition. For the rest of the day, as Yunqi is a fast scrambler, he was very helpful to the competition. The arrangement with him helped keep the competition on schedule.

The day before the competition I ask the organizer how many round will the BLD be. He told me two round. 11:00AM and 3:00PM.
The person mentioned here has since confirmed that this is not true. The person in question was not the organizer, and did not know for certain about the schedule but guessed that there would be two rounds.

The organizer and the others told me, the final will begin on 3:00PM.
Having spoken with the organizer recently, they tell me they never promised there would be a second round.

So I ask the organizer what happened. He said he write the schedule 3 days ago. It do have two round. But When he ask another organizer, the other organizer told him Mingzheng change it two days ago .
The schedule, as posted by the organizer four days before the competition, is still available online with no edits, and with only one round of BLD.

I have attended so many competition , every competitors can get a paper about the schedule .I do ask the organizer for the schedule that morning he said no one print it. Normally WCA delegate help us print the schedule.
There is no requirement to have printed schedules. Computers were available if competitors wanted to check the schedule. The delegate also had a printed copy, available to anyone that wanted to see it.

The organizer asks MingZheng if he can add one round. MingZheng said of course.
Ming says this did not happen.

I wait about 30 minutes, suddenly I find my flight is 7:00PM.
The idea of suddenly finding out that one has a plane flight is absurd.

But at that time chris told me he do not agree. I think he is just joke. But after a minute he discuss something in secret with MingZheng. MingZheng told the organizer he cancel the second round.
Nothing was discussed in secret. We spoke with Haiyan and the organizer, saying that an additional round should be added after all the originally scheduled events finished, and that given the course of the competition up to that point, it was unlikely that there would be extra time for more rounds.

The organizer want hold two round very much.
Again, the organizer confirms she never said she wanted to hold two rounds.

I told him, everybody told me have two round ,why do you told me only one round left.
The only person to acknowledge they said there would be two rounds also says they were guessing, and didn't know the schedule. There are others that can confirm that they spoke with Haiyan the morning of the competition about the schedule, including the single round of BLD.

He said he change the schedule two days ago. I said but I do not know that ,even the organizer do not know that. And there have no one schedule in the competition place. He said I write in on MF8, you should visit it yourself. I said I just attend the WCA competition I do not need visit MF8. MF8 is not WCA’s official site.
The schedule as posted by the organizer has only one round. The MF8 post is the official competition website, as shown on the WCA site.

For 3*3 BLD there have 16 cubers. In order to hold 4*4 BLD for only one cuber you give up 16 cubers.
The addition of 5BLD required no changes to the original schedule. No events or rounds were dropped.

What I have said make him become angary. He said :I think Chinese always hold two round for you is unfair for others. What he said makes me very angary ,I really realize what chris said to him. Why do not you think hold 4*4 BLD for chris and your friend is umfair? It is really unfair. For your friend you add 4*4 for him you think it is fair.. But for me. Chinese always hold two round for me is unfair .
This is a misinterpretation of what I said. I said that holding two rounds of BLD with no regard for the demand for other events or the possible impact on the schedule by adding the event the day of the competition is unfair to other competitors.

We begin to strife.
Finally something true.


I really feel very unfair that time. I pick up the microphone and announce: I feel very unfair about today’s competition. Organizer and every cuber told me 3*3 BLD have 2 round but when I want to competite Mingzheng told me only have one round. There have no schedule pager here. No one know the schudle ,it is his breach of duty .And in order to add 4*4 BLD for his friend he changes the two round BLD to only one round.This WCA delegate is not worth his salt.
Without again repeating the false claims made here, Haiyan fails to mention his very insulting tone throughout his tirade, and that he did this during the competition, disrupting competitors.

Finally I said what I want said for almost one year. Chinese cuber should choose our own WCA delegate. Chinese cuber need democracy. We do not want the appoint people by favouritism. In China ,WCA delegate only choose his friends as the new WCA delegate. It is very unfair. The world is a democracy world. We need to choose the WCA delegate justice ourselves. Every cuber applauds for me. Every cuber want choose our own WCA delegate for a long time.
Beyond the simple fact that choosing delegates should not be based off a popularity contest or the fastest scores, it's important to note that the issue of choosing delegates with regard to Haiyan is problematic, as he has tried to coerce a recommendation for himself.

Chris find things go bad. He ask me what happened. He told the organizer how many round is determined by the organizer does not determined by the WCA delegate. They can hold two round. But I do not want compete.
At the end of the day we actually ended up finishing earlier than I predicted. With a slight amount of time, it would be a push but I asked Haiyan if he wanted to do a second round of BLD. He said no. Because of this, I don't see that he has reason to complain.

I am appreciate Ron , but I do not know why Danyang give up this chance. He only recommend one delegate. And he never meet Mingzheng before. I really do not want say how can Mingzheng become a delegate
An unwarranted accusation.

You know in China no one like undemocratic. We need more WCA delegate for a long time. There sale 20000000 cubes last year. There have many nonWCA competition in China each month. We want more delegates. Just as you see, there have 6 WR in China now. We do really need more delegates.
I very much agree that China needs more delegates, and I've told Haiyan this many times. However, there are difficulties in appointing new delegates. I've asked some people I feel would be very good delegates, and they've refused because they know the position would create conflict with Haiyan. Fangyuan Chang recently became a delegate. Upon hearing about this, before it was confirmed that she would delegate, Haiyan called Fangyuan and insulted her severely, saying it was unacceptable she be delegate. It is notable that they were good friends prior to this. Haiyan has threatened to slander another invidual that he believes might be recommended to delegate.

I like cube .I do not want things goes bad. I try to make better relation with him. He said the reason WCA want ban me is that I always ask two round during the competiton.
Asking once for two rounds is one question, repeated demands for two rounds, after having been explained that two rounds will not be held, is one of the reasons for the ban request.

4 April. The organizer is my friend .He want hold 2 round for me..I break WR 2 times in the first round.. Chris ask me better do not begin the second round. Actrually When I find there have only 4 competitor I think two round is a shame.
Xi'an Spring, April 4. After the first round of BLD, I told Haiyan that there were not enough competitors to have a second round under WCA rules. He had no problem with this.

And I also try to persuade him to give us more delegate. We want recommend a best man. Every WCA delegate in China and cuber think his is fit for a better delegate. But It seem chris never hear our point of view .
I don't recall Haiyan talking about delegates during this competition, but every other time I've discussed the issue of delegates with him, I strongly agree that China needs more delegates and welcome any recommendations he has.

24 April zhengzhou open.
It is my hometown. Every cuber and organizer want me go there, they invite me there and give me two round. Today I call the organizer and ask him have I ever ask you must hold 2 round for me. He said never. Every cuber want you break WR.
After the first round .The organizer told me Mingzheng do not want hold two round .There have only 6 competitors. I also think it is not fit for two round. For me, I think if there have no more than 8 cuber ,I will never do 2 round. It is my rule.

Henan Open, May 2. I did not attend, but the organizer and delegate tell me that Haiyan made repeated demands for a second round of BLD, despite the number of competitors in the event not allowing a second round under WCA rules.

1 May Beijing open.
I give the competition 700$ sponsor of Alpa cube company. And also 120 Alpha cubes. I know there have many cuber attend the BLD. So I ask the holder can I have two round. I do ask for two rounds. If ask for two round is also guilty ,I have nothing to say. The organizer told me there must have two rounds. But the BLD change to 1 round. I really feel unhappy. I think I have right to complain. But I do noting during the competiton. That night the leader of other city also want me talk about with chris about the delegate, But he sill as before., He even never want talk with us. Ok.

BUAA, May 9. Before the competition the organizer and I listed the events in order of priority for holding a second round. The priority was based on the number of rounds and cutoff times for each event in the previous year's Beijing competitions. Had there been enough time, we would have held second rounds for all events, but in the end we were unable to hold second rounds for 5x5, BLD or OH. The organizer never said there would be two rounds. All events aside from 3x3 were scheduled as one round, with the plan to add second rounds, based on the priority list we made, if there were enough time.


8 11 may Beijing Daxue
I know chris do not want talk with me about the delegate. I give up. Others talk with him.
It seems that he maybe want talk with us about this.
This makes me very happy .We even finds chance.

Beijing Side Events, May 23. Not holding BLD, Haiyan didn't attend this competition. No one approached me regarding the issue of delegates at this competition.

7 May Taiyuan open
All the competitor is the member of my own forum. They are all my friend, They hold 2 round for me. I never need ask them hold 2 round for me. But that time I change my mind. I do not want break WR. I tell chris I do not want break. Becauese I really do not want others say me always have so many chance. The second round I get 3 DNF. I tell the organizer. I do that on purpose.

Taiyuan, May 30. The idea that, after so many demands for second rounds of BLD, when given a second round Haiyan intentionally DNFed is silly. Haiyan made no mention of the world record, and watching his solves, they seemed like regular DNFs. Were he intentionally DNFing, that would both be wasting competition time, and somewhat insulting to those competitors who didn't advance into the second round.

That time. Fangyuan Chang told me.WCA Board want change the BLD rule so that restrict me break the WR Last year. Chris do not agree with them .He help me. I says thank you to chris.I really think there have no gap between me and chris. I think chris finally want give us the WCA delegate of our own. Everyone think he will do that.
I would love for someone to point out where I talked about changing the WCA rules with regard to BLD. As for the issue of delegates, I still feel China needs more. At the time, aside from myself, Danyang Chen and Ming Zheng were delegates in China, who both are doing very good jobs. I don't know what he means by "delegate of our own". Perhaps he means a delegate that is Chinese, like Danyang and Ming. Perhaps he means a delegate chosen by Chinese people, like Danyang and Ming.

But suddenly Fangyuan Chang becomes a WCA delegate. No one ever told us. Even Fangyuan Chang do not dare tell to anybody.
Given Haiyan's threats to other delegates, I see no reason to announce to him who is being considered. The choice of Fangyuan was not announced because at the time it was not finalized with the WCA board.

I find he write in our forum that Honghou open should ban me. 5 months have passed, I do not know why he say that again.
A small note in a summary of my nearly five years of cubing, that made no specific mention of the individuals involved and said that the actions were unacceptable and a repeat would lead to a ban.

He must ask the Opinion of Chinese cuber. No one approve his dictatorship.
I have always highly valued the opinions of Chinese cubers who I have no direct reason to mistrust.

If he think there have something should talk with me about the Hanzhou open, he should talk with me directly. Maybe I could agree with him. But I will also tell him what his wrong.
When I asked to talk with Haiyan, he repeatedly said he had no time or that he didn't want to talk.

After Hangzhou open ,I promise I will do nothing during other competition. I really do nothing during the competition. Even the 2 round belongs to me are canceled.
The Hangzhou competition was not the last time Haiyan caused trouble. I have no knowledge of competitions that had previously planned two rounds of BLD later canceling.

Fangyuan chang also give me two round two days ago. There have 15 cubers.She ask me for a long time. In order to save time, the two rounds will hold together.
Inner Mongolia, July 24. Fangyuan confirms she never promised two rounds, saying that if there were time a second round could be considered. She asked other competitors if two rounds of BLD could be held back to back to save time, but all the other competitors said this format would be too tiring.

Chris asks for 1 round again.
The original schedule called for one round of BLD.

Actually I do not care if there have 2 rounds.I told me I need not angry.
"Not angry" in this case translates as threatening violence against organizers and delegates.

I ask Fangyuan Chang.You told me there have two round ,why do not you write it in on the schedule. She said if she write it on the schedule chris will never agree.
Fangyuan confirms she never agreed to hold two rounds, that a second round would be added if there were time. I never disagreed with her planning.

I also told ShuangChen not matter how many round the BLD is. I will support the competiton forever. I wish the competition hold well. I will still support them the timer.
I did not attend this competition, but I've been told that Haiyan told the organizers that he would not provide timers for the competition unless there were two rounds of BLD. This was less than a week before the competition, with little chance to find another source of timers.

Maybe he writes the mail above to you.
After this, the person in question sent another message, recanting their previous statement. They later sent another, saying the previous message was written by Haiyan and that he threatened them into sending it.

1 month before the competiton she told me there will have two round of BLD.
As stated before, this is false.

He have ever said many times and said to Several cubers that: Chinese always hold BLD 2 round for Haiyan Zhuang is unfair for foreigner.
We ask him why hold 2 rounds are unfair for foreigner. We are according to the WCA rules.Your rules. We do nothing wrong.
He open his mouth and say nothing for a long time.. He has nothing to say. He agrees he have ever said that.

My response being slow is reasonable, giving that I was being threatened at 2AM and being required to respond in a language I'm not fluent with. That I said nothing is false. I stated that, if I did say this at some point, it was a mistake on my part. My meaning was that, always holding a second round of BLD with no regard for the demand for other events is unfair to other competitors, and if he is unhappy with how BLD is held in China he could try comparing it with foreign competitions.

The organizer of Hangzhou ask him for 2 round many times. I never ask for him. He said he never heard the organizer for him. He tell a lie. You can ask the orginzer here: http://worldcubeassociation.org/resu...ngzhouOpen2010
The organizer want hold 2 round very much. You can ask the organizer.

Again, I spoke to the organizer recently and she says she never promised to hold two rounds, only that a second round could be considered if there were time.

How can Chris know I want 2 round He said maybe they ask for Ming Zheng. Ok. They ask for Mingzheng. But Why do not you agree to give 2 round. He said, the time is not enough. I ask him, the whole competition is finished on 4:30 PM. The time is enough, every cuber during that competition can give you proof for the time. He has noting two say.
So far as I recall, the Hangzhou competition ended just after 4:40. The original schedule ended at 5:00. I had originally said it would be a bad idea to add a second round of BLD because the competition wasn't likely to end ahead of schedule. While my prediction not being accurate doesn't show a deliberate attempt to limit Haiyan's solving, I think it's more important to note that, when asked at the end of the day if he wanted another round, Haiyan declined. This makes the ending time of the competition irrelevant.

He never told the real truth about HangZhou open to WCA Board.
Despite not being the delegate for the competition, I gave a report on the Hangzhou competition to the board.

Further you if WCA want suspend me they need also suspend Chris .If they wan ban me they need also ban Chris.
I told the board Haiyan's complaints against me, and said that if they felt the need, I would accept being suspended during the course of the investigation along with Haiyan. The board did not feel that was necessary.

Another suggestion,if what Xiaobo Jin said about the ShangHai open is not truth. Can WCA ban him?
B- B- B- BANNING SPREE!!!

During the competitions he has acted aggressively, threatened to physically harm an individual several times, and verbally abused other competitors and WCA delegates.
2k3) competitor behaves in a way that is unlawful, violent or indecent, or intentionally damages venue facilities or anyone's personal property within the venue;

At least two WCA delegates are witness to threats of physical violence made by Haiyan. That he did not carry through with the threats is irrelevant.

2k2) competitor is suspect of cheating or defrauding the officials during the competition;
Lying to organizers and delegates about competition scheduling falls under defrauding officials.

Aside from Haiyan's words here, I think it's important to point out that information regarding witnesses and the information given to the IAC will not be given, despite requests, due to threats made to those involved.

I was requested by another party involved in this situation to give more explanation on the international forums. If people want further information, I have posted a lot on mf8.com.cn
Sorry this is so long, probably not much fun to read. Time for me to sleep.
 
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There have many things you wrote is not truth of your reply. And I do not want relpy it again.All your result is get from email. No one man in my mail who hold other competitions have ever get your email.So no one of them trust your result.If you want get the reall truth,at least you should ask a man who can say chinese come to China to investigate this at least one month.Otherwise ,no one trust WCA.This result is just WCA result.
 
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Kirjava

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Yeah, something like that. Some people are working on the report, and it's unfortunately not a trivial matter. Translation aside, the people involved are trying to decide how exactly they want to present this. You can ask Keemy about some of the information.

Thanks for the heads up. However, this information wasn't exposed on request. Who can I ask that will tell me?

as you feel the WCA does not provide enough information on various incidents

I wonder where you heard this.

My only gripe with the WCA is the handling of regulation changes and the regulations themselves. However, I hope to bring various things concerning this up at the appropriate time of the year for regulation discussion.
 

Bob

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[...] anyway here is to hoping the WCA will be more transparent in the future (or for 2011 reg dropping BLD as an event since it apparently fosters poor sportsmangship).[...]
That is a joke, right?
I believe there is some truth to that. I heard that 3x3x3 speedsolve is also on the list of events to be dropped because it is too hard for judges to ensure competitors do not make moves during inspection.
 

riffz

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There have many things you write is not truth of your reply. And I do not want relpy it again.
That sucks. I guess I'll take keyan's word for it.

[...] anyway here is to hoping the WCA will be more transparent in the future (or for 2011 reg dropping BLD as an event since it apparently fosters poor sportsmangship).[...]
That is a joke, right?
I believe there is some truth to that. I heard that 3x3x3 speedsolve is also on the list of events to be dropped because it is too hard for judges to ensure competitors do not make moves during inspection.
:p
 

Tyson

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Yeah, something like that. Some people are working on the report, and it's unfortunately not a trivial matter. Translation aside, the people involved are trying to decide how exactly they want to present this. You can ask Keemy about some of the information.

Thanks for the heads up. However, this information wasn't exposed on request. Who can I ask that will tell me?

as you feel the WCA does not provide enough information on various incidents

I wonder where you heard this.

My only gripe with the WCA is the handling of regulation changes and the regulations themselves. However, I hope to bring various things concerning this up at the appropriate time of the year for regulation discussion.
You can talk to me personally. But a lot of this information is in the works right now, and it's not exactly clear what will be published, what needs to be edited, and what's not appropriate to be published.
 

Kirjava

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Thanks for the offer, but I'd rather wait for it to be published than personally waste time being used on getting it done.
 

ChrisBird

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[...] anyway here is to hoping the WCA will be more transparent in the future (or for 2011 reg dropping BLD as an event since it apparently fosters poor sportsmangship).[...]
That is a joke, right?
I believe there is some truth to that. I heard that 3x3x3 speedsolve is also on the list of events to be dropped because it is too hard for judges to ensure competitors do not make moves during inspection.
lollololololololol

Nice one =D
 

oprah62

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I believe there is some truth to that. I heard that 3x3x3 speedsolve is also on the list of events to be dropped because it is too hard for judges to ensure competitors do not make moves during inspection.
Huh? At The comps I have been to some judges pay no attention whats so ever. I could probably make an xcross without them noticing. Also, my friend had his cube's core misaligned before he finished his u perm on 4x4 so he put it down and took the dnf. The judge didn't even bother to check the rest of the last layer because she saw a block lined up( back of u perm). She just wrote down his time and he had to correct her. Maybe if some just payed a bit more attention...
Edit: Wow I fell for his joke. anyway, it wouldn't surprise me that judges can't ensure moves.
 
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ChrisBird

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[...] anyway here is to hoping the WCA will be more transparent in the future (or for 2011 reg dropping BLD as an event since it apparently fosters poor sportsmangship).[...]
That is a joke, right?
I believe there is some truth to that. I heard that 3x3x3 speedsolve is also on the list of events to be dropped because it is too hard for judges to ensure competitors do not make moves during inspection.
Huh? At The comps I have been to some judges pay no attention whats so ever. I could probably make an xcross without them noticing. Also, my friend had his cube's core misaligned before he finished his u perm on 4x4 so he put it down and took the dnf. The judge didn't even bother to check the rest of the last layer because she saw a block lined up( back of u perm). She just wrote down his time and he had to correct her. Maybe if some just payed a bit more attention...
Dude, he isn't serious.
 

hawkmp4

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The ability of people to speculate and take sides (and switch sides) so quickly based on hearsay surprises me...
The WCA has no motivation to cause conflict with any cuber...it is not good for the community. I trust the WCA to at least have very good reason to suspect that rules are being broken to actually suspend a WCA member. In addition, I'm sure that the WCA doesn't want to make more work for themselves than necessary. I don't think they enjoy doing investigations.
That being said, I trust whatever decision the WCA comes to after their investigation. I certainly am not going to take the side of Haiyan after hearing testimony only from him, which is in direct opposition to several other people. I'm also not going to condemn him before the WCA makes their decision.
I think it's rather...silly... to do otherwise, and takes a great deal of vanity to think you know the whole story well enough to decide who is right and who is wrong, especially when your only information comes from forum posts.
 

Whyusosrs?

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Tldr

I'm waiting for the wca report to come out before I choose who is in the right. But haiyan, maybe you should organize your own competition with 2 rounds next time, eh?
 
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