Random Cubing Discussion

[StachuK1992]

3rd gen?
Since when are we on 3rd gen? I'm out of the loop here.

 

[amostay2004]

Not all .99s are not displayable by the stackmat. I think 9.99 is not possible

 

[abctoshiro]

For CLL + 1 (1 corner in last slot? If I am right...):

ELS then:

I do a one-look, two alg system. Uh-huh:

1. Corner Commutators (Uh, 3 cycles.)
2. L3C finish.

If I am right.

 

[Kirjava]

You are wrong. It's like this;

<+Nibblr> 3x3 Scramble #15381: R2 L2 F2 R' B U2 B' R B2 D U2 F' L' B F U2 D F2 R2 L2 D' B2 D R' L

xcross - r2 F2 R f M2
F2L #2 - x' U' R2 U2 R2 U'
F2L #3 - x U' R U R' U R U'
F2L #4 - y' x' U R U' R' U R U R'
CLL+1 - U2 R U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 r U R' U R U2 r'
L3E - U r U R' U' M U R U' R' U2

 

[Kirjava]

Example #2

D2 R' F2 D' B L' U B' D2 B D2 U R2 B U' F B' U' F B U2 F U L' D'

2x2x3 - E' R' U' L R2
EO - F' L' U' L y'
F2L - R2 U' R U' R2 U2 R U2 R' U x z'
CLL+1 - B' R B R' U2 R' U2 R
L3E - M' U M U2 M' U M

 

[Athefre]

It seems to me that the LL pair would make LS+LL into four substeps with separate recognition for each (pair F2L, make corner and insert pair, CLL+1, L3E). This is more than the common 3-step solutions such as F2L/OLL/PLL, F2L/CPEOLL/2GLL, F2L/CLL/ELL, ELS/CLS/PLL, etc. F2L/CLL+1/L3E is still 3 steps, if you could manage CLL+1 in one. I think it would be very difficult for a 4-step style to compete with a 3-step one at the highest speeds, because of the extra recognition.

Yeah, that's what we were talking about when we said "extra step".

 

[qqwref]

Yeah, that's what we were talking about when we said "extra step".

Mm, I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to have the same opinion as someone else, or to explain said opinion in more detail. Thanks for letting me know. I'm sure the new rule will make puzzle theory discussion a lot better.


EDIT: Kirjava: A Petrus/ZZ start with CLL+1 seems interesting. Does it seem a little odd to you, though, to be orienting the LL edges and then un-orienting them later (for L3E)? I don't think a small inefficiency like that is necessarily a problem, but it's funny that it works out that way.

 

[Athefre]

Mm, I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to have the same opinion as someone else, or to explain said opinion in more detail. Thanks for letting me know. I'm sure the new rule will make puzzle theory discussion a lot better.

Um, I wasn't being mean. My original message was going to be:

"That's what we were talking about when we said "extra step"."

But I decided to add the "Yeah, " to the beginning to hopefully let you know that I'm not meaning it in a harsh way. I just thought it was obvious that it's an extra step, that it's four steps compared to the usual three.

A Petrus/ZZ start with CLL+1 seems interesting.

I've been considering it as a one-look LL for Petrus or ZZ, but since I find it so hard I'm unable to see how fast it can be done. Then I think "There's probably no advantage over ZZ-b anyway."

 

[Athefre]

Let's be friends, qq.

 

[oll+phase+sync]

Well, I guess the pair would always have to be oriented

I find it difficult, but maybe others wouldn't. How many cases is it? ~50 if the pair always faces the same way?

If I have an oriented pair in U layer I can use L3C or Sunes to CLL+1 + L3E, faster (less moves) than OLL PLL. and much less algs ( 21 L3C + 4 Sunes + 9 L3E )

The good thing about L3C algs is:
- that i doesent matter wich of the two possible edges is connected to the corner
- just 6 essentially differnt algs ... or just build your commutator on the fly (flight may be a little slow though )
- The nasties 2 L3C get replaced by sunes.

For waterman style solves it's may be easiers to buid one oriented LL- pair during first layer, especially if last First layer piece is an corner.




The other idea to get to CLL+1 I had is M-Conjugation

It's sad that M/M2-conjugation to L3C algs is absolutly pointless.

M2-conjugation and using a CLL that "flips the bar" (like Z or T Perm), don't work for me since almost none of my CLL's has this "bar flip" property. (ZZ users may call this parity after phasing)

Finaly for Sune's M-Conjugations works , but I totally fail on recognition.

 

[qqwref]

Um, I wasn't being mean.

Oh, okay. I thought you were berating me for saying / expanding on something that had already been said.

I've been considering it as a one-look LL for Petrus or ZZ, but since I find it so hard I'm unable to see how fast it can be done.

Wouldn't the only one-look Petrus/ZZ LL be ZBLL or a minor variant? You could play with the LL a bit during F2L to diminish cases (although that would kinda add an extra step to F2L) but CLL+1 is not a one-look system (since 3 edges remain).

You could do COLL+1 and end up with a U perm (with 1/3 chance of skip). That could be interesting, not optimally fast but a good way to work up to ZBLL.

 

[joey]

Let's be friends, qq.

QQ

 

[Athefre]

Wouldn't the only one-look Petrus/ZZ LL be ZBLL or a minor variant? You could play with the LL a bit during F2L to diminish cases (although that would kinda add an extra step to F2L) but CLL+1 is not a one-look system (since 3 edges remain).

You could do COLL+1 and end up with a U perm (with 1/3 chance of skip). That could be interesting, not optimally fast but a good way to work up to ZBLL.

I guess I shouldn't have said one-look, and I guess it wouldn't be CLL+1 anymore. I mean an amount of steps similar to ZZ-b (two opposite edges before placing the last pair). It would be:

Create the two pairs and place the F2L pair
Sequence

I'm definitely not saying it's good. I'm unsure about the recognition, speed, and number of cases (always using a pair that faces the same way). ZZ-b's phasing is really easy, the recognition isn't bad, and it's only about 170 cases.

 

[Tim Major]

Spoiler

[17:59] <Tim_Major> waffle and kir agreed on 40-50 stm on a usual solve for roux
[17:59] <Tim_Major> I average like, 45-55 cfop
[17:59] <Tim_Major> and cfop is so easy and brain-dead to use
[17:59] <Anonymous> well 40-50 to better than 50
[17:59] <Anonymous> also i average like 70 probably >.<
[18:00] <Tim_Major> 5 moves saves like, a second
[18:01] <Tim_Major> 30 move f2l
[18:01] <Tim_Major> 10 move OLL
[18:01] <Tim_Major> eperm
[18:02] <Anonymous> my cross is so bad >.>
[18:02] <Tim_Major> [18:02] <Nibblr> 3x3 Scramble #15399: R2 L F' B D2 F2 B' D2 B2 R' D' R' L2 U2 L R B' F2 L U' R2 D' U' L D
[18:03] <Anonymous> hm
[18:03] <Anonymous> x L' R U' R2 x
[18:04] <Anonymous> LUL2U'L (5/9)
[18:05] <Anonymous> UR'U'RU2R'UR (8/17)
[18:05] <Anonymous> U'LU2L'U y' L'U'L' (8/25)
[18:06] <Anonymous> U'R'U2RU2R'UR(8/33)
[18:07] <Anonymous> r'R2UR'UrU2r'UM' (10/43)
[18:07] <Anonymous> FRU'R'U'RUR'F' RUR'U'R'FRF' U (18/61)
[18:03] <Tim_Major> z2 M' U' L2 x'
[18:03] <Tim_Major> R U R2 U' R
[18:04] <Tim_Major> U L' U' L U' L F' L' F
[18:04] <Tim_Major> d L' U' L
[18:04] <Tim_Major> U R' U2 R U R' U' R
[18:05] <Tim_Major> l U2 L' U' L U' l'
[18:05] <Tim_Major> U’ M2 U’ M2 U’ M’ U2 M2 U2 M’ (46 STM)
[18:08] <Tim_Major> and I'd do that in a solve
[18:16] <Tim_Major> wow
[18:16] <Tim_Major> your pair insertion
[18:16] <Tim_Major> sucks
[18:16] <Anonymous> ;_;
[18:16] <Tim_Major> don't you look at all at affecting other pairs?
[18:16] <Tim_Major> hey, I'm giving you advice
[18:17] <Anonymous> hey, I am terrible at recognition, leave me alone
[18:17] <Anonymous> like idk how people can recog coll while doing OLL
[18:17] <Anonymous> ****, I can't even recognise oll, I mostly just look at EO
[18:17] <Tim_Major> [18:05] <Anonymous> UR'U'RU2R'UR (8/16)
[18:18] <Tim_Major> try U R' U' R U' R B' R' B
[18:18] <Tim_Major> I mean
[18:18] <Tim_Major> don't you look for that stuff
[18:18] <Anonymous> no
[18:18] <Anonymous> i just see and gogo
[18:18] <Anonymous> i don't have time to stop and look
[18:19] <Tim_Major> then, SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD
[18:19] <Tim_Major>
[18:20] <Tim_Major> every time I insert a pair
[18:20] <Tim_Major> I look for the best way to insert it
[18:20] <Tim_Major> to effect the pair I'm tracking
[18:22] <Tim_Major> I don't need to slow down
[18:22] <Tim_Major> I can't turn much faster than I do
[18:22] <Anonymous> i can't lookahead properly
[18:22] <Anonymous> I basically just look for the corner
[18:23] <Anonymous> and cross to f2l lookahead is nonexistant
[18:23] <Tim_Major> lolnub
[18:24] <Tim_Major> gogogo cross bld, next 2 pairs bld, next 2 pairs bld
[18:24] <Tim_Major> trust your gut feeling
[18:24] <Tim_Major> when trying 2 pairs
[18:25] <Tim_Major> 1st pair, you should always get (bld)
[18:25] <Tim_Major> look at another pair
[18:25] <Tim_Major> after solving 1st pair, trust your gut feeling
[18:25] <Tim_Major> idk about you, but my gut feeling is usually right

Heavily edited irc pm log (edited out personal, off topic, and merged some comments and fixed mistakes)
In summary, do you guys do basic multislotting in your solves? The person I was speaking with doesn't, he just turns as fast as he can
If I'm solving the first pair, I trace another one, and when it comes to inserting pairs, I do it in a way to stop that pair from being a bad pair, and trying to make it a nice pair. I have an example in the logs
I'm mainly asking fast people (ie: sub 12 cfop users )

 

[qqwref]

I'm technically sub 12, I guess. I don't use any basic multislotting but I do try to affect edges during F2L (not just the last pair) to make OLL easier.

 

[irontwig]

Learning short LL algs is pretty easy:

R' U2 R U2 R B' R' B (CLL)
R' U2 R U2 r B' R' B M (COLL/ZBLL)

:3 Almost done with 10htm ZBLL, 11htm ZBLL or 10htm LL next?

 

[Kirjava]

Yah, that's how I do some of my COLL. S'easier than learning new algs and works on almost every sune case.

 

[oll+phase+sync]

You could do COLL+1 and end up with a U perm (with 1/3 chance of skip). That could be interesting, not optimally fast but a good way to work up to ZBLL.

So in case you get oriented edges and an oriented Corner edge pair in U - Layer doing L3C + UPerm look like an real speed improvment, recognition is easy (easier then COLL alone), just 23 cases, low movecount ...

Is anybody activly using this?

 

[abctoshiro]

Since this is a random cubing discussion thread, I now present to you my "method":

Uhm,
ZZF2L-XELS-L5Corners.

More detail in my new blog at my signature.

Need to sleep.

 

[irontwig]

Nice for FMC (especially with insertions), I don't know about speed. L5C can probably be quite nasty at times.