[Help Thread] Colour Neutrality Discussion

[Chilabuster]

I started with blue cross then switched to white cross because that's what all the tutorials used and the OLL and PLL algorithms showed yellow on top, white bottom, so it was easier for me at that time to be able to follow the algorithm chart. If you can solve for white, you can solve for yellow. If blue, then green. If red, then green. What I'm doing to become color neutral is picking a color at random, scrambling with that color on bottom, then solving using the color I chose as my cross. It can be a bit frustrating at times, especially when learning F2L, but it can be very useful when you see an easy cross with a color you wouldn't have otherwise used. However, one point I'd like to make is that you don't have to be CN to be fast. A lot of the top cubers are CN, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to be. From what I've seen and heard, it may just save you a few moves but that doesn't really matter until you are sub-10, IMO. I'm not a great cuber myself, but I recommend giving color-neutral solving a go, even more so if you are starting out (I've heard it's harder to transition over in the intermediate to late stages).

Run-down:
Pick a color at random. Scramble with that color on bottom. Solve your cross using that color. Repeat until you think you have the scheme down, then time yourself and set a reasonable target. Repeat with a different color.

Here's a thread worth checking out. Great advice offered.

https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?34655-My-Tips-for-Becoming-Color-Neutral

 

[SiTeMaRo]

I can't confirm that I'm color neutral. I started a week ago, and I keep doing better and better. But still, it's very hard because I did on white and yellow, and I mess up easily the pairs on f2l.
Never give up!

 

[SiTeMaRo]

For anyone who really wants to be color neutral, I recommend to start right now because it will be much harder later.
I'm practising for about 3 weeks and I'm way better than when I began. So, it's worth to practice color neutral.

 

[CubeDatCube]

Do you really think 2x2 colour neutrailty helps your 3x3 in colour neutral?

 

[Matt11111]

Do you really think 2x2 colour neutrailty helps your 3x3 in colour neutral?

No, because 2x2 is extremely easy to become color neutral, since there are far fewer pieces (and no F2L).

While I'm here, (and I don't know if this has been answered already) would it be better to focus on one color at a time (I.e. an average of 100 or so with, say, red, before trying the next color) or not (I.e. choosing whichever cross looks the best regardless of color)?

 

[MoFoYa]

While I'm here, (and I don't know if this has been answered already) would it be better to focus on one color at a time (I.e. an average of 100 or so with, say, red, before trying the next color) or not (I.e. choosing whichever cross looks the best regardless of color)?

I agree with this except that I would focus on 2 colors at a time... The two colors with the same color f2l pairs. For example Y/W, or R/O, or B/G. The hardest part of being CN is finding the f2l pairs; so, every time you get good at a new f2l color scheme you actually gain 2 cross colors.

 

[Isaac Lai]

No, because 2x2 is extremely easy to become color neutral, since there are far fewer pieces (and no F2L).

While I'm here, (and I don't know if this has been answered already) would it be better to focus on one color at a time (I.e. an average of 100 or so with, say, red, before trying the next color) or not (I.e. choosing whichever cross looks the best regardless of color)?

I did one colour at first, then immediately gave up. I think it's much more effective to just find the best cross+1 solution on any colour, though I eventually limited myself to only crosses with centre edge pairs as there's no way I'd be able to check every colour within 15 seconds.

 

[Xtremecubing]

I did one colour at first, then immediately gave up. I think it's much more effective to just find the best cross+1 solution on any colour, though I eventually limited myself to only crosses with centre edge pairs as there's no way I'd be able to check every colour within 15 seconds.

I agree with this. The best way to become colour neutral in my opinion is to force yourself to use the best cross option, until you get used to solving on all six sides.

 

[Matt11111]

I agree with this. The best way to become colour neutral in my opinion is to force yourself to use the best cross option, until you get used to solving on all six sides.

Alright, thanks.

 

[cmhardw]

I had a much harder time switching when I practiced colors one at a time. The point of color neutrality is to always have easy-ish crosses. Once I decided to always do the best cross, the switch happened more easily for me. I say always do the best cross, and don't bother practicing colors one at a time.

I no longer think of my solves by color really. Now I just see the "shapes" of the pairs. I'd heard other color neutral solvers say this when I was still switching and I didn't really get it at first, but it's true. When you're color neutral you don't really notice the colors anymore, just the relationships between pieces. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's how I think about it now.

 

[SiTeMaRo]

I had a much harder time switching when I practiced colors one at a time. The point of color neutrality is to always have easy-ish crosses. Once I decided to always do the best cross, the switch happened more easily for me. I say always do the best cross, and don't bother practicing colors one at a time.

I no longer think of my solves by color really. Now I just see the "shapes" of the pairs. I'd heard other color neutral solvers say this when I was still switching and I didn't really get it at first, but it's true. When you're color neutral you don't really notice the colors anymore, just the relationships between pieces. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's how I think about it now.

Yeah. A problem I have is that sometimes I insert the pairs incorrect because I often look at the white colors because I practised 8 months on white cross. So you only need a lot of practice to get rid of the problem I have.

 

[Abhay Singh Tomar]

I am a color neutral solver and I learned being color neutral from critical cubing. I am getting nice times with it but the problem is that sometimes I get a scramble in which it is very tough to decide in which color to start on and by the time I have decided it I am past 5-7 seconds leaving me really less inspection time. Please help.
example scramble:-B2 L2 U' F2 U' B2 U L2 R2 F2 L' R U' B R2 U L' F L'

 

[cmhardw]

Scramble white on top green on front. Green is the best cross color. The cross edges are oriented relative to the center, and a corner/edge pair is already built.

I would do:
x' R D' L D L' D2 L' (cross while preserving the built c/e pair)

y R U' R' (insert the pair)

Practice choosing a cross color by doing untimed solves. Try the same scramble multiple times and see if you can find something better each time, or on different colors. When you find an option that is best, try to see how that option looks at the scramble compared to your other options. This will help you to learn to spot good cases from a scramble.

It gets easier over time, and practicing without timing yourself helps a lot.

 

[Logiqx]

I agree with Chris's points. Pick the easiest cross and give yourself the best lookahead right from the start of your solve. Don't time yourself whilst you are trying to make the transition to CN.

I switched to CN when I was averaging about 40 seconds. I stopped timing myself completely and just picked whichever cross looked easiest. It took about a month until I felt comfortable with all six cross colours (~30 minutes cubing each day) then I started timing myself again and my times were back to how they were prior to switching.

I think you should look for an easy cross rather than force yourself to do fixed crosses. The whole point of CN is to avoid hard cross cases.

 

[mark49152]

What *is* a hard cross case? Obviously some are easier than others, but are any genuinely hard?

The thing that has always put me off switching to CN is the impression that during inspection it just diverts time from planning the cross solution, towards choosing the cross colour. I would like to think that 12 seconds is enough to plan a decent solution to any fixed cross. On the other hand, if I spend 1 second looking at each colour to choose the best, that's half my inspection gone.

There always seems to be a decent solution if you inspect long enough, so it's just a matter of getting smarter and faster at planning the solution, right?

(I get that occasionally a really easy case will jump out, and I also get that you've got nothing to lose if you're starting out and average 40+ seconds. But the net advantage still seems minimal.)

 

[Logiqx]

What *is* a hard cross case? Obviously some are easier than others, but are any genuinely hard?

The thing that has always put me off switching to CN is the impression that during inspection it just diverts time from planning the cross solution, towards choosing the cross colour. I would like to think that 12 seconds is enough to plan a decent solution to any fixed cross. On the other hand, if I spend 1 second looking at each colour to choose the best, that's half my inspection gone.

There always seems to be a decent solution if you inspect long enough, so it's just a matter of getting smarter and faster at planning the solution, right?

(I get that occasionally a really easy case will jump out, and I also get that you've got nothing to lose if you're starting out and average 40+ seconds. But the net advantage still seems minimal.)

You're right in that no cross cases are truly hard but some are definitely easier than others. An easier cross can give you the opportunity to transition into F2L more smoothly and with better lookahead. My only ever cross skips have been non-white/yellow and it's not uncommon to spot 3 edges pre-solved on non-dominant colours.

When it comes to choosing a cross colour, I perhaps spend 1-2 seconds glancing around the whole cube to look for anything "promising" and if nothing leaps out at me, I'll focus on white/yellow. I certainly don't spend time evaluating every possible cross colour. I guess it's akin to planning the first face during Ortega... just a quick look for "promising" colours (e.g. partially built faces) and picking one. If the first choice isn't working out then maybe consider another option from the "promising" list.

Ironically some of the easiest crosses don't jump out during my pre-inspection (e.g. R' F L B') but the partially-built crosses often take less to plan/visualise, allowing for finger-trick optimisations and/or deeper inspection (e.g. first pair).

 

[mark49152]

An easier cross can give you the opportunity to transition into F2L more smoothly and with better lookahead.

Sure, but that has to be traded off against whatever disadvantage it gives you to be working in your non-preferred orientation for the rest of the solve. Quickly scanning for very easy cases and then reverting to white 50% and yellow 25% of the time is not really "full" CN in that you presumably still have a bias towards white/yellow orientations when recognising F2L and LL. Have you done (large) averages on each colour to measure that bias?

 

[Logiqx]

Sure, but that has to be traded off against whatever disadvantage it gives you to be working in your non-preferred orientation for the rest of the solve. Quickly scanning for very easy cases and then reverting to white 50% and yellow 25% of the time is not really "full" CN in that you presumably still have a bias towards white/yellow orientations when recognising F2L and LL. Have you done (large) averages on each colour to measure that bias?

I haven't ever timed myself over large averages but on the two occasions I've done official competitions my fastest solves have been on red and green.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[JustinTimeCuber]

I'm trying to become <x2> neutral, and I mostly am, but becoming <x,y> neutral seems a lot harder

 

[Hammer]

I have ordered a bunch of cubes from the cubicle since my Zhanchi broke:
Thunderclap, Aolong v2, Yuexiao, Valk3, Weilong GTS
And until they come I want to become color neutral but is there any way I can do it without a cube?
(I started on white and I have mastered green)

And also I average 20-25 secs with a pb of 16.22