[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

I learned ZZ yesterday and actually got a couple of decent singles and average. 15.xx single and 18.xx avg5, I was thinking of using ZZ for OH. These times were 2H though. The inspection time still is a bit long though, but I don't care to much about that just yet.
 
When is it too late to switch methods? I've been an on and off cuber but in total I have worked on Fridrich for about a year now. I am looking to switch to ZZ since it seems more efficient and I feel like it would be easier to improve. With Fridrich I am constantly concerned about learning algorithms but with ZZ I can learn blockbuilding. Should I switch?
 
why don't you try it out for a month and see then, hard to say which one you like if you don't give some time to try out a method. couldn't hurt :)

for reference i was a CFOP cuber for over a year before i switched earlier this year.
 
Ive been trying it out and I see 2 major aspects. One is EOLine. WHat i seem to be doing is making a line then doing EO. During F2L I also seem to have a really bad habit of putting in the D edge pieces first making it a cross and doing fast F2L instead of block building. How will I break these habits. EO I will have to practice and practice but F2L is a concern.
 
for me breaking the habit of F2L was a matter of slow solving and beginning to see exactly what i could get away with doing and blockbuild. Can't do something you haven't seen before.

also, http://cube.crider.co.uk/zz.php?p=f2l

give that a look, you'll see there's other ways to pair, you could do a pair like CFOP and then insert, or you can actuall pair the corner with the cross edge and then pair it with the 2nd layer edge to make the 2x2 block. Like i said, just play around a little bit, don't even try to speed solve it, just slow solve and see how many other ways you can find to make pairs and blocks. Sometimes, it'll go pretty much the same as with CFOP, other times it won't. Just try to be creative, you know how to do it from a CFOP perspective, see if you can do it in other ways. That's the real beauty of ZZ is that it's a bit freer to do it, but at the same time it makes it a bit more challenging because you gotta constantly be thinking on what to do, because there's usually several ways to do it, but not all of them are efficient or good to do :P.

also with EOLine, EO first before you even do any lines if any, EO first, then start to think about where the line edges are going. You're basically making the transistion that just about every ZZ solver went through first starting, i.e. learning EOLine (because as you already know, it's no easy task, even for more experienced ZZ users), and breaking the habit of doing EOCross -> F2L.
 
CheesePuffs said:
Ive been trying it out and I see 2 major aspects. One is EOLine. WHat i seem to be doing is making a line then doing EO. During F2L I also seem to have a really bad habit of putting in the D edge pieces first making it a cross and doing fast F2L instead of block building. How will I break these habits. EO I will have to practice and practice but F2L is a concern.
Click to expand...

100% agreed, I've been having the same issues :( Block building is hard for CFOP users :(
 
TwisterTimmy said:
Block building is hard for CFOP users :(
Click to expand...

I used CFOP for two years. I've been using ZZ this month (for 3x3). This is what I do when see two pieces that go together, either with one or two D layer pieces. I treat the color that the pieces don't share as the D layer color.

Example: I solve, using ZZ, with white on D. When I get a CFOP-style pair, say the red/white/blue corner and the red/blue edge, the color that's not-shared is white. When it's something else, say the red/white/blue corner and the red/white edge, the not-shared color is blue.

Disclaimer: I solve with CFOP color-neutrally and learned F2L intuitively. That probably influenced this approach and how well I can do it. Also, I'm still not good at choosing which two pieces to pair together. (I still tend to choose CFOP-style pairs. I need to work on this.)
 
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blockbuilding is admittedly hard just because it's not habit, slow solving, as in regular CFOP F2L, helps massively in getting past that as a mindblock.
 
ZZ seems like a much more fun method with more potential. Even though fridrich will get me very fast, in ZZ there will always be room for improvement. I think in one day I have decided a method that I will use for awhile.
 
cubingawsumness said:
Ah I see. Thank you for your explanations.
Now for this whole month I'm going to a lot of ZZ. By the end of this month and year, my goal is to be sub 30. I think this is possible with a lot more EOLine solving.
I am still unsure if I will switch for good, but we'll see soon. Wish me luck! :)
Click to expand...

That was the beginning of this month, and these are my results from today (12/31)
number of times: 100/100
best time: 15.84
worst time: 25.60
best mo3: 17.58 (σ = 2.27)
best avg5: 18.07 (σ = 0.26)
best avg12: 19.33 (σ = 1.66)
best avg50: 20.17 (σ = 1.79)
best avg100: 20.37 (σ = 1.78)
session mean: 20.37

18.91, 17.51, 23.57, 17.18, 19.69, 19.92, 15.98, 22.35, 19.02, 25.60, 20.52, 17.21, 19.90, 24.07, 19.10, 23.09, 17.16, 23.55, 18.35, 18.01, 17.84, 19.59, 21.81, 21.90, 23.25, 21.65, 19.01, 22.38, 21.29, 18.98, 20.12, 19.42, 20.37, 20.55, 22.37, 19.33, 22.09, 22.96, 22.82, 21.87, 19.67, 18.62, 21.23, 18.06, 17.71, 23.65, 20.97, 19.17, 23.81, 24.32, 19.23, 20.95, 17.36, 21.41, 22.42, 18.59, 22.75, 20.89, 21.72, 20.14, 15.84, 16.75, 23.68, 19.84, 24.49, 18.52, 21.42, 21.01, 16.69, 20.49, 16.20, 23.01, 17.96, 18.06, 18.33, 21.35, 19.49, 21.79, 20.74, 23.23, 20.89, 21.64, 18.79, 18.36, 21.46, 18.04, 19.55, 20.25, 17.66, 20.54, 20.51, 19.33, 19.62, 21.69, 20.40, 22.45, 21.05, 22.18, 19.67, 21.00

Today's session is also all new PBs, which I'm really happy about.
I not only achieved sub 30 in this month, but am nearly sub 20!

My solves right now are horrifyingly inconsistent. This is because sometimes if I fail EO and discover bad edges during F2L, I have to re-orient them, slowing me down a lot. Also, I sometimes have a lot of pauses either between EO, line, and/or F2L, or just during F2L. To fix this, I will do lots of slow solves. EOLine is still the weakest part of my solve, I think, and from now on, I will try practicing doing it blindfolded.

As for switching to ZZ for good, definitely. I am almost at the same speed as I was using CFOP (see sig which I should really change) and I still feel like I have a lot of space to improve.
 
cubingawsumness said:
That was the beginning of this month, and these are my results from today (12/31)
number of times: 100/100
best time: 15.84
worst time: 25.60
best mo3: 17.58 (σ = 2.27)
best avg5: 18.07 (σ = 0.26)
best avg12: 19.33 (σ = 1.66)
best avg50: 20.17 (σ = 1.79)
best avg100: 20.37 (σ = 1.78)
session mean: 20.37

18.91, 17.51, 23.57, 17.18, 19.69, 19.92, 15.98, 22.35, 19.02, 25.60, 20.52, 17.21, 19.90, 24.07, 19.10, 23.09, 17.16, 23.55, 18.35, 18.01, 17.84, 19.59, 21.81, 21.90, 23.25, 21.65, 19.01, 22.38, 21.29, 18.98, 20.12, 19.42, 20.37, 20.55, 22.37, 19.33, 22.09, 22.96, 22.82, 21.87, 19.67, 18.62, 21.23, 18.06, 17.71, 23.65, 20.97, 19.17, 23.81, 24.32, 19.23, 20.95, 17.36, 21.41, 22.42, 18.59, 22.75, 20.89, 21.72, 20.14, 15.84, 16.75, 23.68, 19.84, 24.49, 18.52, 21.42, 21.01, 16.69, 20.49, 16.20, 23.01, 17.96, 18.06, 18.33, 21.35, 19.49, 21.79, 20.74, 23.23, 20.89, 21.64, 18.79, 18.36, 21.46, 18.04, 19.55, 20.25, 17.66, 20.54, 20.51, 19.33, 19.62, 21.69, 20.40, 22.45, 21.05, 22.18, 19.67, 21.00

Today's session is also all new PBs, which I'm really happy about.
I not only achieved sub 30 in this month, but am nearly sub 20!

My solves right now are horrifyingly inconsistent. This is because sometimes if I fail EO and discover bad edges during F2L, I have to re-orient them, slowing me down a lot. Also, I sometimes have a lot of pauses either between EO, line, and/or F2L, or just during F2L. To fix this, I will do lots of slow solves. EOLine is still the weakest part of my solve, I think, and from now on, I will try practicing doing it blindfolded.

As for switching to ZZ for good, definitely. I am almost at the same speed as I was using CFOP (see sig which I should really change) and I still feel like I have a lot of space to improve.
Click to expand...
Awesome! Also, I still fail EO sometimes... But I think of it as a good thing because I'm pushing myself so of course I'll make some mistakes.
 
hey,

i'm new to this forum, just registered today ;P

i cube since 2 months now and use ZZ as main method aswell. i got a 27.31 single and a 38.02 ao5 atm.

i still read alot in this forum, but i never registered. but due to the fact, that ZZ isn't that popular in germany and somehow noone use it, there is quite no ZZ-content in the german forums, so i registered here to improve myself and to share my ideas and thoughts aswell :)

regards,
Noa
 
i alrdy read alot of it before i decided to use ZZ as my main method ;P

btw, dunno if someone posted it alrdy.

I found out that during F2L sometimes it's useful to combine a whole 2x2x3-block at once by doing a 1x1x3 block with the DR or DL-edge and and combining the 1x1x3 with the FL/BL or FR/BR-edges in one step. It's kinda bit a little variation to the "normal" blockbuilding, but if you have a 1x1x3-block with the DR or DL-edge alrdy it can save a shitload of turns.
 
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Indiana said:
two questions -
1> any useful additions, like coll, cls ect.
2> im a fridrich convert and use EOCross. is that okay, and if not, why?
Click to expand...

1) The basic OCLL/PLL is normal for 2H. COLL/EPLL is also normal for 2H, but is really useful for OH. Those are the only two LL's that are predominately used.
2) EOCross is how I started (I switched from CFOP to ZZ), but go to EOLine as soon as possible. EOLine, and then blockbuilding is more efficient; and therefore faster.
 
Indiana said:
two questions -
1> any useful additions, like coll, cls ect.
2> im a fridrich convert and use EOCross. is that okay, and if not, why?
Click to expand...

Hey, for question 2, I'm in the same situation hahaha I thought that It would make things much better for me as a CFOP user when converting into ZZ to just use EOCross, but then someone on the forum explained to me reasons why EOLine is better than EOCross, at least in an efficiency and speed manner.

Firstly the EOCross would limit your movement, instead of making a cross when you make simply the line, R, U & L are completely free to move around, thus giving you full freedom into building the blocks. The beauty of ZZF2L and EOLine (as I see it) is that it combines and overlaps between F2L and block building, minimum moves, but yet a comfortable restriction as to allow the user to still be able to track the pieces without taking into account the entire cube.

Next, when using block building, as many of the other block building methods suggest, its very move efficient, it requires less moves as compared to F2L due to the fact that there are less restrictions and also since your rarely need to break apart what you've build and then revert it back again. Instead you build everything in one go (so to speak). Of course this doesnt mean that putting in cross pieces is a horrible thing, however, think again of what advantages you might be taking away in building a EOCross instead of EOLine, since permuting 4 pieces does take more moves/time than permuting simply 2, and of course (again) takes away so much freedom during ZZF2L with the R, L and U faces :)

I'm still pretty new to ZZ but thats the information I've gotten from reading threads and asking around, so hopefully its helpful, do correct me if I made any wrong statements :P
 
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