[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[mDiPalma]

Yeah.

lol ya, I hate those too. But I suck it up and RUL.

 

[F perm]

My 2 cents: OCLL/PLL is faster than COLL/EPLL... for me. So, even though I learned all the COLL's, I shall only use them for OH, and the Pi/H COLL's, if I can find some better algs for some of the Pi's, because there is barely any recog slow-down.
I am also debating CLS, WV and SV. Of those, I think CLS is the best alg set, but there are so many. WV seems cool too.

 

[SAICubed]

Is it worth learning full PLL when i plan on learning COLL in the near future?

 

[mDiPalma]

Is it worth learning full PLL when i plan on learning COLL in the near future?

Say you get a 5 second ZZF2L and an OLL skip on an official scramble. Do you want to have to 2-look the PLL? Or would you rather get the WR by doing a .60 second T-Perm?

Ya, I thought so.

 

[sud_darkhell]

Say you get a 5 second ZZF2L and an OLL skip on an official scramble. Do you want to have to 2-look the PLL? Or would you rather get the WR by doing a .60 second T-Perm?

Ya, I thought so.

I think that the chance of getting an EPLL skip after COLL is much higher. I'll try to explain it intuitively as I understand it, and will be obliged if someone corrects me if I am mistaken or shows the actual math behind it.

OCLL+PLL:
OCLL has 7 cases, so the probability of getting an OCLL skip (which you mentioned) is 1/8 (the eighth case being the solved one). After this one look LL is done with PLL with an average of 12 turns. In other words you can finish off LL with 12 turns for 12.5% of the solves.

COLL+EPLL:
COLL has an average of 10 turns. After COLL, EPLL has 4 cases, so the probability of getting an EPLL skip is 1/5. So you can finish off LL with 10 turns for 20% of the solves.

I have assumed that the likelihood of each case occurring is equal, but I could be wrong here.

Without any skips, OCLL+PLL will require more turns than COLL+EPLL.

Looking at it this way COLL+EPLL looks superior than OCLL+PLL.

 

[aznanimedude]

it's pretty known you have better chance for EPLL skip with COLL as opposed to OCLL but OCLL+PLL will more than likely require less recognition time for most people and therefore be faster to do.

i'm a COLL user and undeniably there's still that split second where i have to recognize the stickers and then do the alg, wheras it's much much faster to just recognize an OLL and do it than look, detect which OLL it is, then which COLL it is. And it's not like other PLLs are slower than EPLLs.

but i like COLL and i'm past the point of no return because i can't not solve and not recognize COLLs anymore, so it'd be slower for me to stop my brain and just do any OCLL then COLL it :3

tl;dr OCLL is probably better for people but WHATEVAWHATEVA I DO WHAT I WANT!

edit:

Is it worth learning full PLL when i plan on learning COLL in the near future?

also, yes. because you will still occasionally get OLL skips, and also might be like some COLL users and just do regular Sune/A-Sune into PLL rather than COLL those, since some of those can be awkward to recognize and execute

 

[A Leman]

I think that the chance of getting an EPLL skip after COLL is much higher. I'll try to explain it intuitively as I understand it, and will be obliged if someone corrects me if I am mistaken or shows the actual math behind it.

OCLL+PLL:
OCLL has 7 cases, so the probability of getting an OCLL skip (which you mentioned) is 1/8 (the eighth case being the solved one). After this one look LL is done with PLL with an average of 12 turns. In other words you can finish off LL with 12 turns for 12.5% of the solves.

COLL+EPLL:
COLL has an average of 10 turns. After COLL, EPLL has 4 cases, so the probability of getting an EPLL skip is 1/5. So you can finish off LL with 10 turns for 20% of the solves.

I have assumed that the likelihood of each case occurring is equal, but I could be wrong here.

Without any skips, OCLL+PLL will require more turns than COLL+EPLL.

Looking at it this way COLL+EPLL looks superior than OCLL+PLL.

No. you have a 1/12 chance of a EPLL skip with coll. A 1/72 chance of a pll skip if you do not influence the PLL in any way. A 1/216 chance of an oll skip with CFOP and a 1/27 chance of a OLL skip with good EO. Also, the likelihood of each case occuring is not equal.

Despite the messy logic, your intuition is right. COLL makes it easier to get a PLL skip, but that does not prove it is superior. Some COLL cases are not that great and have more difficult recognition. For example many people prefer sune/PLL than coll/epll since the sune is so easy and fast.

 

[Petro Leum]

i still find that my recognition time is less with COLL, the algs are waaaay better, and the incredible amount of skips makes up for every 0.01 second loss which might be there.



(this is only partially true for sune cases, but i would learn them as "ZBLLs" and to use them at OH)

 

[blokpoi]

I have trouble planning out my eoline in 15 seconds, help anybody?

 

[aznanimedude]

then spend more than 15 seconds, just take however long to do it, over time you'll get more and more used to detecting and tracking, it's more important how well you plan than how fast you plan

 

[mDiPalma]

....or just don't plan out eoline at all.

plan out EO and blockbuild during the line. It's less moves.

 

[TheNextFeliks]

I suck at eoline. I can get decent speed but nowhere close to optimal. Do you have any tips for better eoline?

 

[aznanimedude]

do them slow and take note of where your line edges end up so you can know where to put them after EO step. assuming you have a fixed color aka like yellow top blue/green front, or something to taht effect

 

[sud_darkhell]

No. you have a 1/12 chance of a EPLL skip with coll. A 1/72 chance of a pll skip if you do not influence the PLL in any way. A 1/216 chance of an oll skip with CFOP and a 1/27 chance of a OLL skip with good EO. Also, the likelihood of each case occuring is not equal.

Despite the messy logic, your intuition is right. COLL makes it easier to get a PLL skip, but that does not prove it is superior. Some COLL cases are not that great and have more difficult recognition. For example many people prefer sune/PLL than coll/epll since the sune is so easy and fast.

Ah, thanks for the actual probabilities. I personally feel more comfortable with COLL and I find a few PLLs difficult to execute, so I guess to each his own.

 

[TheNextFeliks]

What is zz-d's missing link? I heard about it but don't know what it is. Also what is the difference between zz-d and zz-orbit? From their descriptions, they seem to be identical.

 

[mDiPalma]

the missing link is the method (and corresponding recognition) for permuting the corners during the completion of the first (left or right) f2l block, thereby reducing the cube to a state solvable with only 2-gen moves (RU or LU).

if I'm correct, ZZ-Orbit solves the corner permutation during the completion of the *second block* requiring a few extra moves and additional recognition step. cpls is better.

 

[TheNextFeliks]

So how many people actually know full zb? Anyone?

 

[uvafan]

I don't believe that anyone currently knows full ZB.

 

[porkynator]

I think Ville Seppanen knows it (at least he kenw it a long while ago)

 

[nickvu2]

Harris Chan also knew all of it, but I'm pretty sure he has long since forgotten a lot of it. To my knowledge nobody knows full ZB, let alone uses it in speedsolving.