[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[ChrisCross]

Andy at the cubicle uses ZZ, you can ask him questions if he is on the livestreams at their office comps.

 

[ChrisCross]

How do you guys practice with ZZ?

 

[genericcuber666]

How do you guys practice with ZZ?

step 1. practise eoline
step 2. ???
step 3. profit

 

[gyroninja]

step 1. practise eoline
step 2. ???
step 3. profit

I think it would be much more beneficial to practice f2l. Since eoline is the easiest part of the method.

 

[luca]

I think learning these algs are not worth it

 

[genericcuber666]

I think it would be much more beneficial to practice f2l. Since eoline is the easiest part of the method.

WHAT have you tried a 6 or 10 wrong case its crazyf2l is easy less intuitive than cfop but eoline...

 

[CubingGenius]

What do I need to be able to know/do to average under 20 seconds consistently with ZZ? I can regularly get sub-20 solves but I also often have 28-30 second solves that make me average a lot higher.

So what do I need to know to reach consistently averaging under 20 seconds?

 

[shadowslice e]

What do I need to be able to know/do to average under 20 seconds consistently with ZZ? I can regularly get sub-20 solves but I also often have 28-30 second solves that make me average a lot higher.

So what do I need to know to reach consistently averaging under 20 seconds?

Preferably (but not necessarily) a 2-LLL system- probabaly COLL/EPLL or OCLL/PLL.

Eliminate the biggest pause in your solve which is probably after EOline so try to see at least part of F2L.

Make sure you blockbuild the F2L instead of doing a more CFOPesque F2L.

 

[GenTheSnail]

How do you guys practice with ZZ?

I just do tons of solves. That's how most people practice.
Target weak spots. If your LL is fine, (sub-3 or so, or you aren't learning any LL algs) then just do EOLine+F2L, and re-scramble after your done with that. In a session of several hundred, you would end up saving a bunch of time. If EOLine is your best part, then you probably could gen scrambles with an EOLine skip.

step 1. practise eoline
step 2. ???
step 3. profit

I think it would be much more beneficial to practice f2l. Since eoline is the easiest part of the method.

As long as your EOline isn't super long, sub-2.5, then work on F2L, because thats where ZZ is at its greatest. I have splits of about 2.5, 9.5, 4.5. If I really pushed myself with look-ahead, higher tps, and more efficiency, I could probably get sub-8 F2L. I think F2L isn't necessarily the easiest part of the method, but its where you can drop the most time. EOL and LL require less work to get faster at IMO.

WHAT have you tried a 6 or 10 wrong case its crazyf2l is easy less intuitive than cfop but eoline...

I can't tell if you had a typo, or if you meant everything you post conveys because punctuation is a bit lacking, but whatever.
6 edges are easy, just do 3-3. 10 wrong is pretty simple, just do 4->6 3-3 or 7->4 (which is just a faster 4->6 3-3).
ZZF2L is much more intuitive than CFOP F2L, as it requires the use of block building. EOLine, as stated before, is pretty basic. I think recognition is hardest for EOLine, and with some effort, that isn't very difficult either.

What do I need to be able to know/do to average under 20 seconds consistently with ZZ? I can regularly get sub-20 solves but I also often have 28-30 second solves that make me average a lot higher.

So what do I need to know to reach consistently averaging under 20 seconds?

Preferably (but not necessarily) a 2-LLL system- probabaly COLL/EPLL or OCLL/PLL.

Eliminate the biggest pause in your solve which is probably after EOline so try to see at least part of F2L.

Make sure you blockbuild the F2L instead of doing a more CFOPesque F2L.

@shadowslice e covered it pretty well.
There's not much more you can do than that.
Everything else is just improving efficiency, increasing look ahead and tps.
Don't spam tps, turn slowly(2-3 tps) and lookahead.
Try and eliminate the pause between EOL/F2L and don't pause in any of F2L.
Know what keyhole is and use when useful.
Go for splits of about 3-11-4.
If you use OCLL/PLL, learn CxLL recognition for all except s/as. Try and predict your PLL CP case. Then learn COLL.

 

[CubingGenius]

Preferably (but not necessarily) a 2-LLL system- probabaly COLL/EPLL or OCLL/PLL.

Eliminate the biggest pause in your solve which is probably after EOline so try to see at least part of F2L.

Make sure you blockbuild the F2L instead of doing a more CFOPesque F2L.

I use COLL/EPLL for L, PI and H, ZBLL for T and U and OCLL/PLL for Sune/Antisune. But I can't turn very fast on LL, I often take 4+ seconds on an algorithm.

I use blocks and pairs both a lot and don't have any problems using them, so I don't think that's an issue.

I agree with you, I believe the biggest problem is the EOline to ZZF2L. Do you know a good way to train myself to eliminate this pause?

@shadowslice e covered it pretty well.
There's not much more you can do than that.
Everything else is just improving efficiency, increasing look ahead and tps.
Don't spam tps, turn slowly(2-3 tps) and lookahead.
Try and eliminate the pause between EOL/F2L and don't pause in any of F2L.
Know what keyhole is and use when useful.
Go for splits of about 3-11-4.
If you use OCLL/PLL, learn CxLL recognition for all except s/as. Try and predict your PLL CP case. Then learn COLL.

I have been practicing slow solves a lot but I often have a big pause after EOline even though I plan the whole line out in inspection. My TPS is not very good, I struggle to sub-3 PLLs and sub-4 ZBLLs/COLLs.

I know what keyhole is and use it when the opportunity arises.

I just did an avg12. The splits were 2.80/13.85/7.58 and the avg12 was 21.67.

So it looks like I need to work on my F2L and my LL?

 

[GenTheSnail]

I use COLL/EPLL for L, PI and H, ZBLL for T and U and OCLL/PLL for Sune/Antisune. But I can't turn very fast on LL, I often take 4+ seconds on an algorithm.

I use blocks and pairs both a lot and don't have any problems using them, so I don't think that's an issue.

I agree with you, I believe the biggest problem is the EOline to ZZF2L. Do you know a good way to train myself to eliminate this pause?

Is this full ZBLL for T and U? Is the 4+ second execution recognition/alg memo too? Or is it purely the execution of the algorithm. If so, just drill the algs, get them into muscle memory, try and go for sub-2.5 on all of them. Don't think about them when you execute. Push your tps as high as you can when performing all algs really.

I have been practicing slow solves a lot but I often have a big pause after EOline even though I plan the whole line out in inspection. My TPS is not very good, I struggle to sub-3 PLLs and sub-4 ZBLLs/COLLs.

I know what keyhole is and use it when the opportunity arises.

I just did an avg12. The splits were 2.80/13.85/7.58 and the avg12 was 21.67.

So it looks like I need to work on my F2L and my LL?

While executing EOLine, track some F2L peices, and since you know what to do to solve Line, this should be pretty easy. Actually, the hardest part I find about this is not watching me solve EOLine.

In general just drill algs.

Good. Keyhole is very useful.

Yeah, EOLine is pretty good, F2L and LL really need some work.

 

[CubingGenius]

Is this full ZBLL for T and U? Is the 4+ second execution recognition/alg memo too? Or is it purely the execution of the algorithm. If so, just drill the algs, get them into muscle memory, try and go for sub-2.5 on all of them. Don't think about them when you execute. Push your tps as high as you can when performing all algs really.

Yes, full T and U ZBLL. I also use two COLL subsets of L as well. The 4+ seconds is for execution, my recognition is quite fast compared to the algorithm itself which often takes ~5 seconds to execute. By drilling them, do you mean doing them over and over again? If so, I will do that for all of them.

While executing EOLine, track some F2L peices, and since you know what to do to solve Line, this should be pretty easy. Actually, the hardest part I find about this is not watching me solve EOLine.

In general just drill algs.

Good. Keyhole is very useful.

Yeah, EOLine is pretty good, F2L and LL really need some work.

I will try to track pieces with the EOline. Is it a good idea to track pieces that move less during the execution of the EOline?

I will try to work on my F2L and LL. Should I practice solving slowly to also practice looking ahead?

 

[GenTheSnail]

By drilling them, do you mean doing them over and over again? If so, I will do that for all of them.

Yeah, thats basically the best way to get good at algs. Just do them over and over.
Also, make sure you have good finger tricks.

I will try to track pieces with the EOline. Is it a good idea to track pieces that move less during the execution of the EOline?

Yes, if you have time, try and figure out where they will end up too, and yeah, pick the ones that don't move a whole lot, so its easier.

I will try to work on my F2L and LL. Should I practice solving slowly to also practice looking ahead?

F2L typically benefits from slower turning and more lookahead.
I know that [some] people can lookahead during LL, but I'm not sure how. I think it's called RLL, but that might be for OLL->PLL edge prediction. Just practicing algs will typically get your LL times to drop.

And to re-address your first post, sometime I still get 25s 2H, and I'm sub-18. It's just something that happens.

 

[GenTheSnail]

This sort of belongs in the "request an alg thread", but I feel it is more appropriate here.

Set up: R2 U R2 U' R' U R
To solve the 3 pieces in UF UFR UR to BR DRB DR respectively, I would just do the inverse: R' U' R U R2 U' R2.
I just got this like six times during a couple feet solves and I feel like there is a better way of solving this case, because it seems kinda long.
Any of you know of a better way/use a different set of moves?

 

[JTWong71]

This sort of belongs in the "request an alg thread", but I feel it is more appropriate here.

Set up: R2 U R2 U' R' U R
To solve the 3 pieces in UF UFR UR to BR DRB DR respectively, I would just do the inverse: R' U' R U R2 U' R2.
I just got this like six times during a couple feet solves and I feel like there is a better way of solving this case, because it seems kinda long.
Any of you know of a better way/use a different set of moves?

A different way I would do it that is more efficient is surprisingly to Keyhole with:
R2 D R' U' R D', although I don't do Feet Solves, so I am not sure if this algorithm is very ergonomic for the event, but it is good for 2H.

 

[Petro Leum]

So, depending on how you gauge "fast", yeah, no one world class that I'm aware of uses ZZ. I know we have @Petro Leum , who has a sub-10 average and we might also have Hyeon Kyo Kyoung (I'm not sure if she uses ZZ), who is world class (sub-8 in comp average, 18th in the world for average).
Also, Colorful Pockets isn't the only OH ZZ cuber. Phil Yu (asmallkitten) had the NAR in OH way back in, like 2012. And, while he isn't practicing OH as much anymore, he still broke his pb average at nats and as a 10.07 single (and he is still faster than Pockets). And there are other OH ZZ cubers. They probably just don't have a youtube channel with 20k subs.

Don't forget Andy Huang, the best ZZ solver right now

btw i love you for that SP quote in your signature... you're like the first person i meet who also enjoyed this amazing book series.

 

[GenTheSnail]

A different way I would do it that is more efficient is surprisingly to Keyhole with:
R2 D R' U' R D', although I don't do Feet Solves, so I am not sure if this algorithm is very ergonomic for the event, but it is good for 2H.

Cool. This is definitely faster, at least for feet. I will use keyhole by default unless I find a way to preserve a block with mine.
Also I kinda measure Feet solving in QTM, just because double turns take that much longer with feet solving.
R2 U R2 U' R' U R = 9 QTM
R2 D R' U' R D' = 7 QTM

btw i love you for that SP quote in your signature... you're like the first person i meet who also enjoyed this amazing book series.

I don't think I've seen anyone else who's read it either. SP is so great.
I want to finish his other series, Demon Road, but my library system won't let me do an inter-library loan for a book that's been out for less than 6 months.

 

[CubingGenius]

Is it a good idea when making the EOline to have as few F2L pieces on the side opposite to where they have to go? As in, a piece on the left side belonging on the right side?

Is it also a good idea to finish the F2L block at the back first when possible? I think lookahead would be a bit easier that way.

 

[JTWong71]

Is it a good idea when making the EOline to have as few F2L pieces on the side opposite to where they have to go? As in, a piece on the left side belonging on the right side?

Is it also a good idea to finish the F2L block at the back first when possible? I think lookahead would be a bit easier that way.

There are subtle tricks that don't force you to have to build the back Blocks first. What you can do is a Open Slot type of thing, where if you build the Front Block, you offset it with an L/R', so it becomes the Back Block. This also allows for move cancellations sometimes, because instead of (R' U R) to insert, you already have (R') done.

 

[CubingGenius]

There are subtle tricks that don't force you to have to build the back Blocks first. What you can do is a Open Slot type of thing, where if you build the Front Block, you offset it with an L/R', so it becomes the Back Block. This also allows for move cancellations sometimes, because instead of (R' U R) to insert, you already have (R') done.

Yes, I use this quite often. So building whichever one is easier is the best option?