[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[Nilsibert]

thats really good!

Thanks, I think I'll continue to practice. If I can get consistent sub 20 that would be cool. Maybe I'll even reach my CFOP times in the future.
But what I always wonder, is there a set order people solve in? Left block first for example? Or does it depend on the situation? Because one thing about ZZF2L that is hard is all the possible ways to solve, which makes it hard to quickly decide what's fastest.

 

[Nilsibert]

thats really good!

Thanks, I think I'll continue to practice. If I can get consistent sub 20 that would be cool. Maybe I'll even reach my CFOP times in the future.
But what I always wonder, is there a set order people solve in? Left block first for example? Or does it depend on the situation? Because one thing about ZZF2L that is hard is all the possible ways to solve, which makes it hard to quickly decide what's fastest.

 

[DizzypheasantZZ]

What is the fastest ZZ single (official or unofficial)?

Also, what do you guys think about ZZLL?

 

[supercavitation]

Thanks, I think I'll continue to practice. If I can get consistent sub 20 that would be cool. Maybe I'll even reach my CFOP times in the future.
But what I always wonder, is there a set order people solve in? Left block first for example? Or does it depend on the situation? Because one thing about ZZF2L that is hard is all the possible ways to solve, which makes it hard to quickly decide what's fastest.

To a certain extent, yes. I'm not very good with ZZ, but I do the first thing I see. If I don't see anything, I do the Red-Green F2L block, then go from there.

 

[Petro Leum]

What is the fastest ZZ single (official or unofficial)?

Also, what do you guys think about ZZLL?

for the fastest official single, maybe my 8.38.

for the fastest unofficial one, you will have to ask this guy or girl for his or her PB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVfI5w_wm34


I think ZZLL is quite viable, im over halfway through learning it. some cases suck, but since phasing recognition can be incorporated in F2L lookahead, i think its an overall improvement over classic 2look systems and much more realistic to maintain than ZBLL

 

[mDiPalma]

Also, what do you guys think about ZZLL?

I almost finished learning it a few years ago, but it was too hard to maintain alg recognition, especially after taking breaks from cubing. I still remember 1-2 additional ZZLL algs for each COLL case, but I don't like the idea of full ZZLL.

with WV, ZZLL phasing, COLL/EPLL, etc, you aren't bringing the cube any closer to the solved state. You are just making it easier to recognize a case. There are plenty of alg sets that ACTUALLY bring the cube closer to solved during the LS/LL, and that has always interested me more.

 

[irontwig]

In STM, COLL brings the cube quite a bit closer to solved; 6.42

 

[willtri4]

Thanks, I think I'll continue to practice. If I can get consistent sub 20 that would be cool. Maybe I'll even reach my CFOP times in the future.
But what I always wonder, is there a set order people solve in? Left block first for example? Or does it depend on the situation? Because one thing about ZZF2L that is hard is all the possible ways to solve, which makes it hard to quickly decide what's fastest.

I just do whatever I see first. I think reducing pauses is more important than doing what's most efficient.

 

[DizzypheasantZZ]

I think ZZLL is quite viable, im over halfway through learning it. some cases suck, but since phasing recognition can be incorporated in F2L lookahead, i think its an overall improvement over classic 2look systems and much more realistic to maintain than ZBLL

Where did you get ZZLL algs. Did you just look off ZBLL or is there a place with just ZZLL algs.

 

[Petro Leum]

Where did you get ZZLL algs. Did you just look off ZBLL or is there a place with just ZZLL algs.

a guy on the forum had a full set of ZBLL algs which i reformatted and used some of the algs or at least mirrors/inverses. those that did not fit me personally i replaced with good ones i found on boca, in the speedsolving wiki or generated from cube explorer.

now that speedsolving and boca are dead, its alot harder and i mostly use those from algdb.net, although the choice is very limited on there.

 

[adimare]

What do you guys track when looking ahead?

As of very recently this was my strategy:
- while solving the EO line I'd try to track a corner piece first and then an edge I could pair it with (could be either a cross edge or an E slice edge)
- while pairing it up with the edge I'd look for the other edge that goes with the corner
- while solving the block I'd look for the next corner...

Lately tho, I've been trying this:
- while solving the EO line I'll find an unsolved cross piece and track it
- if I can come up with a way to solve it along with a pair I'll go for it, if not I'll just solve the cross piece on its own and look for something to do while I solve it.

Now, the solutions I come up with with the approach A are more efficient than the ones with approach B, but my execution with approach B is a lot faster and I end up getting better times when I use it. Approach B resembles CFOP a bit more which I guess is partly why I can execute it with more ease, so I'm not sure if I should stick with it or keep practicing the first one until I get better at it and hopefully faster overall.

Reconstruction of solves of the same scramble I did with both approaches.
approach A
approach B

PS: it would be awesome to have lots of reconstructions of ZZ solves from cubers that know what they're doing (ie: not me), most of the stuff in the the ZZ example solve game seems more like an FMC challenge using ZZ.

 

[Millet]

a guy on the forum had a full set of ZBLL algs which i reformatted and used some of the algs or at least mirrors/inverses. those that did not fit me personally i replaced with good ones i found on boca, in the speedsolving wiki or generated from cube explorer.

now that speedsolving and boca are dead, its alot harder and i mostly use those from algdb.net, although the choice is very limited on there.

Speedsolving algorithm wiki is back up again actually
https://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/Special:MediawikiAlgDB?mode=view&view=default&puzzle=3&group=ZBLL-H

It was gone for the better part of a year I think, and right before algdb.net was initiated.

 

[Petro Leum]

What do you guys track when looking ahead?

As of very recently this was my strategy:
- while solving the EO line I'd try to track a corner piece first and then an edge I could pair it with (could be either a cross edge or an E slice edge)
- while pairing it up with the edge I'd look for the other edge that goes with the corner
- while solving the block I'd look for the next corner...

Lately tho, I've been trying this:
- while solving the EO line I'll find an unsolved cross piece and track it
- if I can come up with a way to solve it along with a pair I'll go for it, if not I'll just solve the cross piece on its own and look for something to do while I solve it.

Now, the solutions I come up with with the approach A are more efficient than the ones with approach B, but my execution with approach B is a lot faster and I end up getting better times when I use it. Approach B resembles CFOP a bit more which I guess is partly why I can execute it with more ease, so I'm not sure if I should stick with it or keep practicing the first one until I get better at it and hopefully faster overall.

Reconstruction of solves of the same scramble I did with both approaches.
approach A
approach B

PS: it would be awesome to have lots of reconstructions of ZZ solves from cubers that know what they're doing (ie: not me), most of the stuff in the the ZZ example solve game seems more like an FMC challenge using ZZ.

i have usually been doing approach B, coming from CFOP, and my lookahead got really nice with almost pauseless solving. But just like you i didnt like the inefficiency of that approach, but i ran into the same difficulties with approach A. I think it would be best if one could just plan out EOLine + pair/block in inspection, but i just cant do that. i tried some things to practice planning ahead but i always get stuck when its more than 2 unoriented edges or more than 1 piece to predict/track. FML

 

[mDiPalma]

What do you guys track when looking ahead?

I don't think it really matters what you track. I think the bigger influence comes from how you solve what you track. ZZ/Petrus are nice because you can solve squares and blocks instead of pairs. This gives you many more possibilities to start than in CFOP.

IE, for your scramble:

z2 D2 F2 U2 L2 R2 F R2 F' D2 B' R2 D R' U' B R2 B L B' D' L2 F R2 D B D' R D

U' R' U' L' U2 L U2 L // first block (8)
R2 U' R U R' U R2 U' R2 // second block (9)

that's 11-12 moves less than what you had. In a speedsolve, I would probably see the first block as I wrote it, but I wouldn't see that second block, I would probably solve it similar to approach A.

I guess my opinion is that it takes longer for me to look ahead and track pieces, if I'm going to solve them inefficiently, than to inspect for a moment to find a really nice block, then spam TPS.

The best of both worlds would be to track all the pieces at the same time and look ahead into these nice blocks. But it's not nearly as easy with ZZ (5 pieces across the entire cube) as it is with CFOP (2 pieces in the U layer/remaining F2L slots).


TL;DR. I have really bad look-ahead so I don't really track pieces. But I solve with approach A.

 

[adimare]

z2 D2 F2 U2 L2 R2 F R2 F' D2 B' R2 D R' U' B R2 B L B' D' L2 F R2 D B D' R D

U' R' U' L' U2 L U2 L // first block (8)
R2 U' R U R' U R2 U' R2 // second block (9)

That's a beautiful first block! After noticing a pair I just try to figure out how to solve it along with its edge piece, it never would have occurred to me to pair up the remaining block and solve the full 3x2x1.

i have usually been doing approach B, coming from CFOP, and my lookahead got really nice with almost pauseless solving. But just like you i didnt like the inefficiency of that approach, but i ran into the same difficulties with approach A. I think it would be best if one could just plan out EOLine + pair/block in inspection, but i just cant do that. i tried some things to practice planning ahead but i always get stuck when its more than 2 unoriented edges or more than 1 piece to predict/track. FML

Nice, good to know I could aspire to your fast times using this approach. Although I think I'm just not a fast cuber (TPS-wise) and might need to stick with approach A and keep getting bad times until I start coming up with better solutions.

I just filmed an Ao5 using ZZ, comments/suggestions are welcome. If it's not too much of a bother, it'd be really cool if one (or many) of you fast ZZ'ers could try the 5 scrambles and upload a video, I'd like to reconstruct your solutions and pick your brains

Scrambles (performed in solving orientation):
1) F2 L2 R2 F2 U2 R2 D L2 B2 D R2 B' D R' F2 L' D' R B D2 R'
2) F D2 F U L D R' B' R' B2 U' L2 F2 D B2 U2 D F2 L2 D2
3) B2 L2 D2 F' D2 B2 L2 F2 R2 D2 U' F' U' B2 D' R2 F2 L R U
4) F' D2 R2 D2 L2 B2 L2 B U2 R2 F' D' L D2 U R' B' D U' F' R2
5) F2 L2 D' F2 R2 U' L2 F2 U2 L2 U R F D2 U' R2 B' R' D' L U

 

[theROUXbiksCube]

Anyone have any tips for OH lookahead, I'm approaching sub20 OH with ZZ and I figure what will get me there is better lookahead and forcing myself to plan full EOline

 

[theROUXbiksCube]

bump

 

[PenguinsDontFly]

If you do the right block first, tilt your head a little so you can watch the left block instead of watching ur left hand covering the left block.

 

[theROUXbiksCube]

If you do the right block first, tilt your head a little so you can watch the left block instead of watching ur left hand covering the left block.

thats gud ty plus you should enter your WCA code
https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2015MANS03

 

[PenguinsDontFly]

thats gud ty plus you should enter your WCA code
https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2015MANS03

wow