# [Help Thread]ZZ and ZB Discussion

#### Cride5

...It seems like there would be a lot more than 4 though. (retain edges, swap F/B edges, swap L/R, rotate all clockwise, rotate all counterclockwise, rotate all 180, 2 different adjacent swaps) Or would the oriented edges (or something else) eliminate some of these situations?
After solving COLL, the edges may be in 12 possible positions relative to the corners (assuming you don't allow AUF). This means that if you wanted to solve COLL, while simultaneously solving the edges you would need to know 12 algs for each COLL case (this is what ZBLL is)*.

Now if you imagine doing phasing and then solving COLL without permuting the edges. The resulting EPLL cases would only include those possibilities in which edges are phased. There are four: H-perm, Solved, and Z-perm from two angles. Solving phased edges during COLL (ZZLL) involves using an algorithm which permutes the edges in one of those four ways.

The theoretical reason that some of the cases you mentioned don't exist (e.g. 4 edges rotated by 90°) is because they form a permutation of the pieces with an odd parity, which is not possible on a Rubik's cube.

*This number is slightly lower than 12 for symmetric COLL cases.

#### nickvu2

##### Member
Now if you imagine doing phasing and then solving COLL without permuting the edges. The resulting EPLL cases would only include those possibilities in which edges are phased. There are four: H-perm, Solved, and Z-perm from two angles. Solving phased edges during COLL (ZZLL) involves using an algorithm which permutes the edges in one of those four ways.

The theoretical reason that some of the cases you mentioned don't exist (e.g. 4 edges rotated by 90°) is because they form a permutation of the pieces with an odd parity, which is not possible on a Rubik's cube.
I'm looking at the RL/FF set of the T Orientation: http://stubers.org/jamesstuff/cube/zzllt.php (2nd group of 4)

None of these edges appear to be H, Z or solved; and the 3rd and 4th are all edges rotated by 90°. Am I missing something?

@Cride: I've read pieces of your ZZ guide and it's excellent, an essential for learning EOLine and block building. I hope to be able to peruse it soon.

Of all the ZZ/ZBLL lists I've seen so far, I am most pleased with Simon Swanson's algorithms: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18172 It might be worth condensing this ZB document into ZZ.

#### James

##### Member
Now if you imagine doing phasing and then solving COLL without permuting the edges. The resulting EPLL cases would only include those possibilities in which edges are phased. There are four: H-perm, Solved, and Z-perm from two angles. Solving phased edges during COLL (ZZLL) involves using an algorithm which permutes the edges in one of those four ways.

The theoretical reason that some of the cases you mentioned don't exist (e.g. 4 edges rotated by 90°) is because they form a permutation of the pieces with an odd parity, which is not possible on a Rubik's cube.
I'm looking at the RL/FF set of the T Orientation: http://stubers.org/jamesstuff/cube/zzllt.php (2nd group of 4)

None of these edges appear to be H, Z or solved; and the 3rd and 4th are all edges rotated by 90°. Am I missing something?

@Cride: I've read pieces of your ZZ guide and it's excellent, an essential for learning EOLine and block building. I hope to be able to peruse it soon.

Of all the ZZ/ZBLL lists I've seen so far, I am most pleased with Simon Swanson's algorithms: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18172 It might be worth condensing this ZB document into ZZ.
From a certain position, yes, you are right. But try adding some AUFs:
(I'm taking from the RL/FF set of the T orientation.)

1. Perform the alg and append U -- now you have a Z-perm.

2. Perform the alg and append U' -- now you have a Z-perm.

3. Perform the alg and append U' -- now all the edges are solved.

4. Perform the alg and append U -- now all the edges are solved.

Performing an H-perm switches from 1 to 2 and from 3 to 4.

Try setting up a case, turning the d layer until FU is solved, and then seeing what needs to happen to the other edges. Either they will all be solved or LU and RU will need to be switched, but BU will be solved.

#### Cride5

I'm looking at the RL/FF set of the T Orientation: http://stubers.org/jamesstuff/cube/zzllt.php (2nd group of 4)

None of these edges appear to be H, Z or solved; and the 3rd and 4th are all edges rotated by 90°. Am I missing something?
You need to look at the case relative to the correct position. If you look at the second case relative to the ULB corner, it is a Z-perm for the edges with corner 3-cycle. Similarly, the third and fourth cases are in the solved permutation if viewed relative to the correct position.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

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#### nickvu2

##### Member
Well would you look at that! This actually makes sense to me now. Thanks for the explanation guys =)

#### eastamazonantidote

##### Member
I'm a little late to the party but I think I count as I want to know ZBLL and currently use ZZ-VH for OH. For 2H I go pure VH.

Of all the ZZ/ZBLL lists I've seen so far, I am most pleased with Simon Swanson's algorithms: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18172 It might be worth condensing this ZB document into ZZ.
Thanks for the compliment. I've had to change some stuff around and a few algs have been improved. Check back in a day or so and I should have a new version online. Those damn AP tests are over and now I can get on with my memo!

#### lilkdub503

##### Member
Those damn AP tests are over and now I can get on with my memo!
Hell yes.

#### nickvu2

##### Member
Thanks for the compliment. I've had to change some stuff around and a few algs have been improved. Check back in a day or so and I should have a new version online. Those damn AP tests are over and now I can get on with my memo!
Sweet freedom; congrats!!!

Yay, looking forward to the new version. My god, I can't believe you have examined various algs for each of those cases. Thank you for all the work you have put into this so far, and sharing it so freely =)

Do you know if there is an easy way to identify the ZZ cases, such as by the CC, CA, CO, etc. categories? I know to ignore the cases with opposite colored edges in FU and RU, but that only eliminates about a quarter of them.

#### eastamazonantidote

##### Member
Those damn AP tests are over and now I can get on with my memo!
Hell yes.
5's all around? RIGHT!
Good chance on US History. Calc BC, Physics, and Chemistry will be 3's or 4's. I don't see them going any higher or lower. And I updated my ZBLL doc but Google Docs is being retarded. I'll give it another shot and it should be up soon.

Sweet freedom; congrats!!!

Yay, looking forward to the new version. My god, I can't believe you have examined various algs for each of those cases. Thank you for all the work you have put into this so far, and sharing it so freely =)
Eh, not quite. I'm editing as I learn them. So basically that means that 2 H cases have been tested and 2 are being worked on as of right now. I learned a new COLL alg for a Sune/Anti-Sune case and I switched it in. If you have any algs you want to see in there shoot me a PM! That applies to everyone.

Do you know if there is an easy way to identify the ZZ cases, such as by the CC, CA, CO, etc. categories? I know to ignore the cases with opposite colored edges in FU and RU, but that only eliminates about a quarter of them.
Hoo! Sorry, I don't know enough about ZZLL. I know that ZBLL recognition is very good with the Baum-Harris recognition. Also, once you get it in your mind that you're looking for a ZBLL case and not a COLL case it gets much easier.

EDIT: Version 2.16 is online

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#### iasimp1997

##### Member
I'm gonna continue looking into this method, but will not use it as my main for a while. I'm averaging 13-19 seconds with Fridrich, and I have a few comps soon, SO I won't be switching for a while.

#### Matt S

##### Member
I've come back to the cube after a roughly three year break, and this system fascinates me, so I've spent the past couple weeks learning it. Now I hope I know enough to ask interesting questions.

Long term it seems like the single most difficult step will be forming the first partial block after EOLine. More specifically, the challenge will be locating the three pieces I'll want to use to make it.

I'm guessing the key is to see the pieces while performing the EOLine moves, but I miss the convenient property in Fridich that all D-face stickers become irrelevant after forming the cross (in ZZ, the dl and dr edges can't be positively identified without looking at D). Does anyone have some good tips for making this recognition fast and consistent?

On the plus side, I love how smoothly the rest of the F2L flows. It's nice to get lucky twice as often, and I love how some nasty c/e pair configurations are eliminated from consideration (corner solved + edge positioned but flipped for starters).

#### Sir E Brum

##### Member
@ Matt S
Check out thishttp://cube.crider.co.uk/#blockbuilding to find really good algs for those nasty cases and maybe even some better ones that you can already do.

In my opinion. EOLine mastery is the hardest part. Finding the best EO solution and making sure that is suited for building the line is quite hard. The transition to F2L after EOLine can be difficult at first because you actually have to focus on your EOLine, but it will get easier as you get better at EOLine. If I can, I usually build my line in the DL DR positions so that it only requires a <D> move to solve it. This avoids awkward B2 and F2 moves as well as giving you that little bit of extra time to check out pieces for F2L.

#### nickvu2

##### Member
Does anyone else have a list of ZZLL algs?

Right now I'm trying to interpret MH's diagrams and then marking off the corresponding case in Simon's ZBLL list. It's taking SO long.

#### eastamazonantidote

##### Member
Does anyone else have a list of ZZLL algs?

Right now I'm trying to interpret MH's diagrams and then marking off the corresponding case in Simon's ZBLL list. It's taking SO long.
I'll thin out my document for you and have it up on the weekend with just ZZLL. How does that sound?

#### ribonzz

##### Member

Its:
Code:
 (youtube)xWqRDZy2X4g(/youtube)
But [ and ] instead of ( and )
I like this one ! It makes my eyes opened !

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#### nickvu2

##### Member
Does anyone else have a list of ZZLL algs?

Right now I'm trying to interpret MH's diagrams and then marking off the corresponding case in Simon's ZBLL list. It's taking SO long.
I'll thin out my document for you and have it up on the weekend with just ZZLL. How does that sound?
You are very kind I owe you one; thanks!

Oh, and I may have found a typo: L orientation RR/FL (O/O) I think it needs to start with a U turn.
(U)L D R' U D' L D' L' U' L D2 R D' L2

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#### eastamazonantidote

##### Member
Oh, and I may have found a typo: L orientation RR/FL (O/O) I think it needs to start with a U turn.
(U)L D R' U D' L D' L' U' L D2 R D' L2
Fixed, though it's not worth the update online yet. When I finish passing judgment on a few H algs I'll update online again. I've only gone through sets I know (3 H sets) so I haven't had much of a chance to catch anything.

#### eastamazonantidote

##### Member
Alrightie then- take 2. Here you guys go (should work better now):

ZZLL Algorithms.doc

ZZLL Algorithms.odt

ZZLL Algorithms.pdf

I'm almost positive I missed some, so don't be afraid to let me know. I just took the cases from HERE and found the corresponding case in my ZBLL sheet. However, I only count 155 algorithms in this document when there should be 167 (right?) so something isn't there. Just let me know and I'll get it fixed.

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