# [Help Thread]ZZ and ZB Discussion

#### Athefre

##### Member
but if i do: R F (R U R' U')*3 F' R'
i would do R so i have a pseudoblock and then i have the colors already separated, but how should i recognize permutation?
You see on the R-layer that the corners are of the same color. There are five cases with this situation. The edge between them is opposite of the color on those corners. There are three cases like that. Now look at URF and UBR. They are opposite colors. It's down to two cases now. Finally, check UFL and ULB. They are opposite, so you know your case is F(RUR'U')3F'.

#### y235

##### Member
Can't believe I hadn't noticed. Thanks. And thanks for the nice sequence.

Now I wonder if there are others...
I checked in BOCA, yoo now have all the cases

#### y235

##### Member
You see on the R-layer that the corners are of the same color. There are five cases with this situation. The edge between them is opposite of the color on those corners. There are three cases like that. Now look at URF and UBR. They are opposite colors. It's down to two cases now. Finally, check UFL and ULB. They are opposite, so you know your case is F(RUR'U')3F'.
setup a case with: R (U') F R2 U' L' U R2 U' L U F (U)
how would you recognize it?

#### Athefre

##### Member
For these cases, there are pairs of colors. In this one there is a pair of colors at RUB and RU and they point counter clockwise going from edge to corner. There are seven cases with this. Then check the other two stickers on those pieces (UBR and UR). They don't match. There are four of those cases. Look at ULB, UL, and UFL. There is a pair of colors at ULB and UL. The only case that fits our situation is (U') FU'L'UR2U'LUR2F'.

I used to have the recognition worked out for all of them, but I didn't think to make a post for it. I'll work on making an image or description for each case.

#### y235

##### Member
For these cases, there are pairs of colors. In this one there is a pair of colors at RUB and RU and they point counter clockwise going from edge to corner. There are seven cases with this. Then check the other two stickers on those pieces (UBR and UR). They don't match. There are four of those cases. Look at ULB, UL, and UFL. There is a pair of colors at ULB and UL. The only case that fits our situation is (U') FU'L'UR2U'LUR2F'.

I used to have the recognition worked out for all of them, but I didn't think to make a post for it. I'll work on making an image or description for each case.

#### nitay6669

##### Member
i dont know if this is the place to ask this but still.
can someone explain to me how to recognize EPLL with only looking at R and F layers, i belive it is called 2d recog or something like that.

#### Athefre

##### Member
i dont know if this is the place to ask this but still.
can someone explain to me how to recognize EPLL with only looking at R and F layers, i belive it is called 2d recog or something like that.
http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/EPLL

You can look at the different combinations there and work out the logic. If both of the edges you see are opposite colors of the corners, you know you have H. If you see that one is solved but the other edge you see isn't solved, you know you have one of the U cases. So on.

#### Athefre

##### Member
The recognition guide is done.

The three columns of colors for each case represent the stickers ULB+UL+UFL, UBR+UR+URF, and RUB+RU+RFU. Then the y2 or U2 away version is shown. For some cases it may be necessary, as I've shown, to cross-compare something like URF and UFL (such as the last two cases).

It looks like no two cases can be confused, but I could be wrong. I may have to add an extra three stickers to represent the F face if problems are found. There are also some stickers I could remove to simplify everything just a little, but this should be fine for now.

#### y235

##### Member
i dont know if this is the place to ask this but still.
can someone explain to me how to recognize EPLL with only looking at R and F layers, i belive it is called 2d recog or something like that.
first match the corners and than look at UF:
if UF solved:
if UR opposite to the corners - Ub (AUF U2)
if UR adjacent to the corners - Ua (AUF U2)
if UR solved - EPLL SKIP
if UF is opposite to the corners:
if UR opposite to the corners - H PERM
if UR adjacent to the corners - Ub (AUF U)
if UR solved - Ua (AUF U')
if UF adjacent to the corners:
If it has the L color:
if UR has the B color - Z
if UR solved - Ub (AUF U')
if UR has the F color - Ub
if it has the R color:
if UR has the F color - Z
if UR opposite to the corners - Ua
if UR has the B color - Ua (AUF U)

#### y235

##### Member
The recognition guide is done.

The three columns of colors for each case represent the stickers ULB+UL+UFL, UBR+UR+URF, and RUB+RU+RFU. Then the y2 or U2 away version is shown. For some cases it may be necessary, as I've shown, to cross-compare something like URF and UFL (such as the last two cases).

It looks like no two cases can be confused, but I could be wrong. I may have to add an extra three stickers to represent the F face if problems are found. There are also some stickers I could remove to simplify everything just a little, but this should be fine for now.
can you give example of recognizing with the table? i have troubles with it.

#### Athefre

##### Member
can you give example of recognizing with the table? i have troubles with it.
Scramble: F R2 D' F L2 D' B2 D L2 F' D R2 F'

Separate - rUR'U'r'FRF'
Permute - You see a pair of colors at FLU and FU. There is another pair of colors at UFL and UF. You could think of this as a CE pair if you want. After this, you look at the other side (the pieces ULB, UB, and UBR) for pairs of matching or opposite colors. There is a pair of colors at ULB and UB. Look through the table and you'll see that the only case that has all of these elements in these places is R'U'LU'RU2L'UM'B'RB2L'. So do U' R'U'LU'RU2L'UM'B'RB2L'.

Scramble: F' B D L2 D' B2 U' F U' F' U2 F B

Separate - U' R'U'RU'R'U2R
Permute - Pair of colors at FU and FUR. The stickers above them (UF and URF) do not match. Pair of colors at ULB and UB. This isn't enough to prove anything. So in this situation, you notice there are opposite colors at URF and UBR. The only case this can be is U x R2D2RU2R'D2RU2R.

It would probably help to try these examples with different types of blocks to see the focus is on certain pairs of colors and not on others that you may see.

#### Athefre

##### Member
Example solves using ZZ + NMLL. In the spoiler below each example, I've included my solution for matching blocks for comparison.

Scramble: U' D2 R' F B' U' F2 D' R' F' U' F' R D2 F2 B D U' L U D2 L2 D L R2

EOLine - R'UBRD (5)
Left Block - U2L2ULU2LU'R'U'RU2L (12)
Right Block - URU2RURU'RUR'URU'R' (14)
Separate - RU2R2U'R2U'R2U2R (9)
Permute - U2 FR2U'L'UR2U'LUF' U'R2r (14)
(54)
LU2LU'LUL2RU'R'U'L'U'L (14)
R'U'RUR2U'R'UR'URU'R'UR (15)
(29)

Scramble: L2 D R D' L' F U B' L U2 F2 L B U L' F' D B2 R L U' R F2 D' F2

EOLine - RF'R'F (4)
Left Block - U2R'UL'U2L' URU2R'U2L' (12)
Right Block - U2RU'R'U'R2U2R'U'RUR' (12)
Separate - FR'F'LFRF'L' (8)
Permute - M2UM2U2M2UM2 U2Rr (10)
(46)
U2R'UL'U2L'R'U'R'U'L'U'L (13)
R2U'RUR2U'R'U2R'U'RU2R' (13)
(26)

Scramble: U F' B U2 R' B' D' R' B' R2 U L2 R' B D2 L2 F2 U D' F2 L2 B2 R' B L'

EOLine - F'LURFU2L2RD' (9)
Left Block - R2U2R'LU2L2ULU'L'U'L (12)
Right Block - R'U'RU'R'U RU2RUR'U'R (13)
Separate - U2L'U2LU2RU'L'UM' x' (10)
Permute - r'Ur'U2lU'l'U2r2B' UL (12)
(56)
U'L2U'LUL2R2U2RUL (11)
U'R'U2RU'R2U2R'U'RUR'U'RUR' (16)
(27)

Scramble: R L' B' U' L2 F2 B' L2 U' L2 B' U' F' B2 D2 B' L' R2 F2 L D2 F' U F2 U'

EOLine - FULDBD' (6)
Left 1x2x2 + Right Block - U'L2ULU'L2R2U2R2 (9)
Finish Left Block - U2LU'L'ULU'L'U'L (10)
Separate - R'U'RU'R'U2R (7)
Permute - U l'U'L2U2L'U'LU2R'UL'U'RL'Ul UR2r' (20)
(Good blocks ruined by the longest case)
(52)
Same (19)

Scramble: F' B2 D2 R2 B L B' F2 D L' R F' D' L2 D F' R D' L B' F' L2 D' R2 D'

EOLine - L'B'LURFL2D (8)
Left Block + Right 1x2x2 - U'R2UR'U2L'U'R'L'U'R'U (12)
Right Block - RURU'LURUR'U2RUR' (13)
Separate - U' R'UL'U2RU'R'U2RL (11)
Permute - U FR2U'L'UR2U'LUF' UM' (13)
(57)
U'L'ULU'L'ULULUL'U2LUL' (16)
U2RUR'U2R2U'R'URUR'U2R (14)
(30)

I'm sure others could do better. Comparing this and the other solves I've done to matching block ZZ (with COLL+EPLL), it looks like there is a difference of maybe three or four fewer moves on average. I think my blocks could be a little more efficient if I was doing the left 1x2x2 then right 1x2x2 technique and wasn't so strict about it having to be 1x2x3 first. I find it difficult to remember the colors I've solved.

#### Athefre

##### Member
Some permutation cases can be turned into each other. Specifically the ones with pairs.

1:

Scramble using B'LB2R'BMU'LU2R'UL'UR. Normally, the reverse of the scramble would be used. But the reverse and the case (R') LU'RU2L'UM'x'U'RU2L'UR' are really the same thing and similar sequences. So you can just look at the two cases, using better sequences, as U'LU2R'UM x U'LU2R'UL' and R U'LU2R'UM x U'LU2R'UL'.

2:

Scramble using UFU'L'UR2U'LUR2F'U'. Instead of solving this case with the reverse, it can be done with a R' adjustment which turns it into the case x R'U2R'D2RU2R'D2. So, the full solution would be x R2U2R'D2RU2R'D2R'.

3: Scramble with UFR2U'L'UR2U'LUF'U'. This case can instead be solved as x RD2RU2R'D2RU2R2.

#### ThomasSO

##### Member
Hi there,

I'm new to this forum, so I hope it's OK that I use this thread to ask some questions about ZZ.

I started to learn ZZ about two month ago after a friend of mine (who also recommended to post here) told me about it. My average is about 40 seconds (CFOP is about 30 seconds).
I am currently practicing to improve my EOLine and I am proud that I am already able to do it in one step with some scrambles.

But to come to the point why I am writing here: I want to improve my LL method and I am unsure what to learn next. I am currently doing the LL with PLL and OLL (I learned full PLL and about 20 OLLs).

So, I don't know what to learn first: WV algorithms or COLL?

And there is also something about Winter Variations I don't understand: the algorithms are normally set up to be used for the front-right slot. Do you normally plan your F2L to make this slot the last slot or do you also have to learn/practise the mirror cases?

I am also open to other suggestions what to learn next. Thank you.

#### y235

##### Member
Hi there,

I'm new to this forum, so I hope it's OK that I use this thread to ask some questions about ZZ. welcome

I started to learn ZZ about two month ago after a friend of mine (who also recommended to post here) told me about it. My average is about 40 seconds (CFOP is about 30 seconds).
I am currently practicing to improve my EOLine and I am proud that I am already able to do it in one step with some scrambles.

But to come to the point why I am writing here: I want to improve my LL method and I am unsure what to learn next. I am currently doing the LL with PLL and OLL (I learned full PLL and about 20 OLLs). if you use ZZ correctly you should have 7 OLLs ><

So, I don't know what to learn first: WV algorithms or COLL?

And there is also something about Winter Variations I don't understand: the algorithms are normally set up to be used for the front-right slot. Do you normally plan your F2L to make this slot the last slot or do you also have to learn/practise the mirror cases? mirror

I am also open to other suggestions what to learn next. Thank you.
...

#### ThomasSO

##### Member
if you use ZZ correctly you should have 7 OLLs
I didn't say I use these 20 algorithms for ZZ. I learned them for CFOP.

#### Pyjam

Hi and welcome there.

You should study the COLLs H, U, T, and L. There are some easy cases to know even if you don’t know the full COLLs.

I don’t know a lot about Winter Var.

#### Speedmaster

##### Member
Does anybody here use zzll, allready know 14 cases, shoukd i change to zz, may avg of cfop is sub 18, the only thing which is stupid at zz is the eo and there are 180 zzll cases, it would takes me 1-3 months to learn them all, but the problem is that i couldn't solve tgem all sub2 or sub3, but here would be some very good singles,
should i change to zz?

#### nickvu2

##### Member
Does anybody here use zzll, allready know 14 cases, shoukd i change to zz, may avg of cfop is sub 18, the only thing which is stupid at zz is the eo and there are 180 zzll cases, it would takes me 1-3 months to learn them all, but the problem is that i couldn't solve tgem all sub2 or sub3, but here would be some very good singles,
should i change to zz?
I learned all but the sune/anti-sune cases (don't learn those since they're already fast). However I stopped reviewing for a few months in order to prep for Nats and have come to find I forgot about half of the cases =p But I'm relearning them now!

It's really fun to solve LL in one step, but frankly, I would have been better off spending all that time practicing EOLine. Phasing is sort of a pain, not to mention despite all this work, I'm still faster at CFOP. At this point I my sense of accomplishment comes from having learned so many algs! (rather then getting jaw dropping times)

Anyway, I say if you think you're currently reaching your limit with ZZ or have a special love for memorizing cases, then go for it. Or if you seriously expect to finish it in 1-3 months, then that's a pretty small investment so why not learn it. Just know that I'm highly skeptical of this time frame, but I hope you prove me wrong =)

#### Speedmaster

##### Member
Why are you faster with cfop, what are you averaging?