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The ZZVolution.

What do you think is the superior method?


  • Total voters
    61

ottozing

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My big take away from the video is that ZZ needs EOcross and ZBLL to even be part of the big 3 period

ZZ still suffers from the fact that you can't easily inspect far enough into the solve to mitigate blindspots anywhere near as effectively as Roux/CFOP, and I think this is inherent to the method
 
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My big take away from the video is that ZZ needs EOcross and ZBLL to even be part of the big 3 period

ZZ still suffers from the fact that you can't easily inspect far enough into the solve to mitigate blindspots anywhere near as effectively as Roux/CFOP, and I think this is inherent to the method
I’m not going to learn ZBLL, does this mean I should switch back to CFOP? I know full OLL/PLL/COLL
 

ottozing

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I’m not going to learn ZBLL, does this mean I should switch back to CFOP? I know full OLL/PLL/COLL
Assuming your goal is to get as fast as possible, then yes I would switch to CFOP and stick with it

If you want to prove ZZ's worth (like, for realz), and you're OK with potentially being slower than you could have been, stick with ZZ knowing that you're eventually going to have to tackle ZBLL
 

GuRoux

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My big take away from the video is that ZZ needs EOcross and ZBLL to even be part of the big 3 period

ZZ still suffers from the fact that you can't easily inspect far enough into the solve to mitigate blindspots anywhere near as effectively as Roux/CFOP, and I think this is inherent to the method
I would think if you're doing eocross and you are a top zz user, blindspots wouldn't be a problem. Edge oriented seems powerful to deduce pieces. And if it's still a problem, you can train to look for back slot pairs while doing eocross.
 

David ep

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Whats the point of zz it’s basically a longer and less fingertrickerble version of cfop the only thing its good for on my opinion is one handed
 

PapaSmurf

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My big take away from the video is that ZZ needs EOcross and ZBLL to even be part of the big 3 period

ZZ still suffers from the fact that you can't easily inspect far enough into the solve to mitigate blindspots anywhere near as effectively as Roux/CFOP, and I think this is inherent to the method
I agree with the first sentence but not the second. I know that it's harder to see further, but 2 things: Ben Baron (and Keaton iirc) says that he consistently sees cross+2 in inspection which, on average, is at least the same number of moves as EOCross+1, probably more, but going from EOCross->EOCross+1 and Cross->Cross+1 is more beneficial than Cross+1->Cross+2, so I don't see that as a big disadvantage. I'd go as far to say that it's nearing on negligble. I'd also say that the changing blindspots in CFOP can take away from the method in certain cases, although this can be mitigated from smart rotations. And as GuRoux said, EO helps a lot with lookahead and deducing what a piece is.
 

PapaSmurf

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Not true we use f moves which don’t require regrips and they flow better as rul moves aren’t exactly regripless
It is true. <RULFy> then, and ZZ is <RULD>. No good CFOP solver does CFOP F2L rotationless, and if you do ZZF2L with EOCross solved, you have fewer regrips than in CFOP F2L.
I use CFOP but it's bad so I'm switching to ZZ soon (or sune, pun intended)
Woo! Join the squad.
 
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I use CFOP but it's bad so I'm switching to ZZ soon (or sune, pun intended)
casually calls the method used to set most old and all current 3-7, OH and feet WRs bad.

Meanwhile ZZ is chilling out with 1 sub 10 OH, no fast big cube results and the world’s fastest ZZ user switched from ZZcross to CFOP and dropped time.
 
Last edited:

PapaSmurf

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casually calls the method used to set most world and all current 3-7, OH and feet WRs bad.

Meanwhile ZZ is chilling out with 1 sub 10 OH, no fast big cube results and the world’s fastest ZZ user switched from ZZcross to CFOP and dropped time.
I mean CFOP isn't really CFOP anymore, so it isn't great. Instead it's more like XFOS for Xcross, F2L, Option Select. It's also certainly not as good as ZZ for feet or OH. For big cubes, ZZ might actually be pretty good. It just depends on how fast you can inspect EO (for me that's less than 2 seconds). It has a lower movecount which is more important than ergonomics on big cubes imo. Then again, I suck at big cubes, so I wouldn't trust my advice. I have 2 sub 10 singles and other people have sub 10 singles OH. And Hyeon Kyo Kyoung used bad techniques for EOCross and LL so CFOP would be better. His offical PB single is with ZZ still. Also, it's not ZZcross, it's EOCross which is still ZZ.
 
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I mean CFOP isn't really CFOP anymore, so it isn't great. Instead it's more like XFOS for Xcross, F2L, Option Select. It's also certainly not as good as ZZ for feet or OH. For big cubes, ZZ might actually be pretty good. It just depends on how fast you can inspect EO (for me that's less than 2 seconds). It has a lower movecount which is more important than ergonomics on big cubes imo. Then again, I suck at big cubes, so I wouldn't trust my advice. I have 2 sub 10 singles and other people have sub 10 singles OH. And Hyeon Kyo Kyoung used bad techniques for EOCross and LL so CFOP would be better. His offical PB single is with ZZ still. Also, it's not ZZcross, it's EOCross which is still ZZ.
How is it not as good as ZZ for OH?
Lol big cubes
I’m talking official
My bad on calling it zzcross not eo Cross, anyway my point was that the fastest guy who used ZZ switched after realizing cfop was better
 

PapaSmurf

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How is it not as good as ZZ for OH?
Lol big cubes
I’m talking official
My bad on calling it zzcross not eo Cross, anyway my point was that the fastest guy who used ZZ switched after realizing cfop was better
For OH: lower movecount, better ergonomics (at least half of F2L is <RU> and the other bit is <zRU>) and easy to force 2GLL if you're semi serious, full ZBLL if you're serious. For the semi serious people, just learn CPLS and do a few hundred solves and then you have a very good LSLL that's only 2 moves more than insert->ZBLL and is definitely better than insert->OLL->PLL or insert->CPEOLL->2GLL.
Talking about official OH is just like talking about official 2H. No one has actually practiced ZZ and you're using anecdotal evidence (which is not strong evidence at all) to suggest that it's therefore worse. Which simply isn't true and even if it is, you're gonna need stronger evidence. Same with the Hyeon situation. He used CFOP for a long time, switched to ZZ (and not the best ZZ), switched back and said that CFOP was faster because he had used it for several years before switching to ZZ.
 

Petro Leum

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I extremely doubt there will ever be a world class zz solver here soon that breaks sub-7. Good luck though but I think the method is going down.
God, I hate when people spread misinformation.

We have Dale Stephen who is already sub8, and I have the highest hopes that he will be sub7 too.


I still think ZZ with EOCross and ZBLL (The only Variant you should use) is better than CFOP. EASILY for onehanded, and probably for twohanded as well.
 

PapaSmurf

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God, I hate when people spread misinformation.

We have Dale Stephen who is already sub8, and I have the highest hopes that he will be sub7 too.


I still think ZZ with EOCross and ZBLL (The only Variant you should use) is better than CFOP. EASILY for onehanded, and probably for twohanded as well.
EOLine for OH though. And yeah, check out his YouTube channel here. He can, relatively consistently, see EOCross+1 too.
 
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