Random Cubing Discussion

[OLLiver]

Yes to all

 

[Berkmann18]

Anyone know a good <Rw, U> 3x3 method?

You should perhaps take a look at: https://maxcubing.wordpress.com/2015/01/23/berkmanns-method/

Are this and this the same thing except this[0] has fewer algs and they orient the last layer/solve the F2L pair in a different order?

It's as you said, done in a different order but it's not same thing except they both 2-look the LSOLL.

 

[Bindedsa]

Who knows the most algorithms in the world? Excluding BLD Algs. Just regular Algs. Obviously there are people who know over 500. but who knows the most and how many does that person know?

I know well over 1k, but some intuitive BLD methods might be considered more extensive.

 

[OLLiver]

I know well over 1k, but some intuitive BLD methods might be considered more extensive.

I feel like you deserve some sort of title for learning all those algs. Lord of the Algs perhaps?

 

[PenguinsDontFly]

I feel like you deserve some sort of title for learning all those algs. Lord of the Algs perhaps?

algdb.jabari

 

[2180161]

the mefferts venus pillow is the same as a 3x3 right?

 

[joshsailscga]

What happened to memyselfandpi?

At some point, all things must come to an end, even youtube channels.

 

[tseitsei]

Yes to all

If this was an answer to me then:

Why is aperm an alg but otherbld comms are not? Aperm is just one of those commutators.

Why are F2L cases algs even if I have learned them all completely intuitively?

Also even sune is quite easy to come up with/learn/"use" intuitively: 1. Take on pair out 2. Move it by doing U 3. Insert it back normally.

 

[OLLiver]

If this was an answer to me then:

Why is aperm an alg but otherbld comms are not? Aperm is just one of those commutators.

Why are F2L cases algs even if I have learned them all completely intuitively?

Also even sune is quite easy to come up with/learn/"use" intuitively: 1. Take on pair out 2. Move it by doing U 3. Insert it back normally.

A Perm is used outside BLD solving therefore it is an alg.
You misunderstand. The F2L cases that you have learned, not figured out intuitively are Algs.
Most people (99.99%) don't figure out sune intuitively.

 

[tseitsei]

A Perm is used outside BLD solving therefore it is an alg.
You misunderstand. The F2L cases that you have learned, not figured out intuitively are Algs.
Most people (99.99%) don't figure out sune intuitively.

Comms are used outside of bld. During fmc insertions and some solving methods (Heise for example).

For the other 2: So the way you have learned those move sequences defines if they are algs or not?
In that case it depends on the PERSON instead of the actual CASE/MOVE SEQUENCE if it's an alg or not.

But then how about cases like my A perms? I learned it as an alg but I am nowadays thinking lf it as one bld comm since I solve bld much more than sighted. Is this an alg for me or not?
Also many f2l cases work similarly. You first look them up and learn them like algs but then you understand how they work and they become more and more intuitive...
Intuitive vs. algs isn't as black and white as you (and many others think). They kind of blend in together and in many cases it's quite hard or impossible to tell one from another...

 

[IRNjuggle28]

Define alg.

Memorized sequence of moves.

Define bld alg.

Intuitive sequence of moves derived from memorized commutator theory (or another memorized method of BLD solving) that's easily applicable enough to many cases that each individual case doesn't need to be memorized.

I will define an alg by defining what it is not.

That's already not a definition.

Are scrambles algs?

If you memorize them, yeah. They're pointless algs, but algs.

Comms are used outside of bld. During fmc insertions and some solving methods (Heise for example).

They're intuitive there as well. Learning what a comm is and how it works isn't necessarily intuitive, but once you understand how they work, applying that knowledge to any 3 cycle you encounter is intuitive. It doesn't involve case-specific memorization.

For the other 2: So the way you have learned those move sequences defines if they are algs or not?
In that case it depends on the PERSON instead of the actual CASE/MOVE SEQUENCE if it's an alg or not.

Yes. That is how the colloquial definition of "algorithm" works. "Memorized sequence of moves" is what everyone knows the word to mean commonly. I don't see the point into turning this into a semantics argument; you and everyone else knew what he meant. Whenever someone asks how many algs someone knows, they're asking how much they've memorized. Intuitive sequences vs memorized sequences are thought of differently, and rightfully so. It may not be clear what's an alg and what's not, but it is clear what question the OP was asking when he said "who knows the most algs." It's also clear the answer is Jabari. Not BLD solvers.

 

[tseitsei]

Whenever someone asks how many algs someone knows, they're asking how much they've memorized. Intuitive sequences vs memorized sequences are thought of differently, and rightfully so. It may not be clear what's an alg and what's not, but it is clear what question the OP was asking when he said "who knows the most algs." It's also clear the answer is Jabari. Not BLD solvers.

As I asked above: Is my a perm an alg. I have learned it by memorizing it but I'm currently using it very much the same way as any other bld com (so pretty much intuitively...). And yeah I totally agree that bindedsa probably knows most "algs" but the answer to question "how many algs I/you/anyone knows" isn't that straightforward and easy since different people consider different things as algs.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

As I asked above: Is my a perm an alg. I have learned it by memorizing it but I'm currently using it very much the same way as any other bld com (so pretty much intuitively...). And yeah I totally agree that bindedsa probably knows most "algs" but the answer to question "how many algs I/you/anyone knows" isn't that straightforward and easy since different people consider different things as algs.

Edited the answer to that into my first post. I would consider it an alg when used as a PLL, but not as a BLD alg. I do think that the way a sequence of moves is used determines if it's an alg or not; I don't think alg is an objective description of a sequence of moves. It describes how the sequence of moves is applied.

EDIT: might as well add a disclaimer. I know this isn't the only definition of "alg" and I don't think the others are wrong in any objective way. I just think the definition I'm using is the most functional definition when it comes to discussing speedsolving.

 

[zyxantjcae654]

The intention to OLL, ignoring relative positions, and the intention to use subset ZBLL but the same as the OLL algo--is considered just 1 algo?

 

[tseitsei]

Edited the answer to that into my first post. I would consider it an alg when used as a PLL, but not as a BLD alg. I do think that the way a sequence of moves is used determines if it's an alg or not; I don't think alg is an objective description of a sequence of moves. It describes how the sequence of moves is applied.

EDIT: might as well add a disclaimer. I know this isn't the only definition of "alg" and I don't think the others are wrong in any objective way. I just think the definition I'm using is the most functional definition when it comes to discussing speedsolving.

By that definition I think all f2l cases would be algs and all comms used in bld would be algs. Because even though I have learned them intuitively I nowadays use them automatically from muscle memory without thnking why or how they work. Just like any other (pll) alg

 

[IRNjuggle28]

The intention to OLL, ignoring relative positions, and the intention to use subset ZBLL but the same as the OLL algo--is considered just 1 algo?

Hmm, interesting point. Yeah, I would still consider it one alg; not sure what else it could be considered. It's a memorized sequence of moves either way (meaning that it's an alg) and it's an identical sequence of moves no matter whether it's used as OLL or ZBLL. (meaning that it's one alg, not multiple algs)

By that definition I think all f2l cases would be algs and all comms used in bld would be algs. Because even though I have learned them intuitively I nowadays use them automatically from muscle memory without thnking why or how they work. Just like any other (pll) alg

"memorized sequence of moves" describes how they are learned, not just how they are used. F2L algs and BLD comms aren't initially memorized; they're figured out intuitively, then practiced to the point where they can be applied as easily as if they'd been memorized. I think by my definition, they clearly aren't algs.

 

[tseitsei]

"memorized sequence of moves" describes how they are learned, not just how they are used. F2L algs and BLD comms aren't initially memorized; they're figured out intuitively, then practiced to the point where they can be applied as easily as if they'd been memorized. I think by my definition, they clearly aren't algs.

Well someone from this forum (was it aronpm?) actually learned 3-style by learning every case as algs and not intuitively. So would you say that those were algs when he used them?

 

[IRNjuggle28]

Well someone from this forum (was it aronpm?) actually learned 3-style by learning every case as algs and not intuitively. So would you say that those were algs when he used them?

He memorized 800+ algs? Impressive. Yes, I suppose they would be considered algs in this case, even though they typically aren't. If this was a common situation, I'd think that my definition of "algorithm" was a bad one. I think this is a rare exception, though, and that 3-style is typically an intuitive method.

 

[zyxantjcae654]

So in conclusion, ZBLL controls the whole LL no matter in orientation only or with solving. That includes OLL and PLL. And you can do multiple intentions using a specific algo. Whoo.

 

[TDM]

You should perhaps take a look at: https://maxcubing.wordpress.com/2015/01/23/berkmanns-method/

I can only use <r, U> though.