[Help Thread] Colour Neutrality Discussion

[masterofthebass]

Ok, I concede that there is a WR that was done on a non-white cross. Yu Nakajima is definitely NOT color neutral though. I actually posted that at 6:21 in the morning after a night of no sleep. Looking back, my main message still holds true. I never said that being color neutral is bad, but there's is no advantage. NO one has ever given a reason other than the cross is better, but I really don't think saving 2 moves on the cross is that better.

 

[Johannes91]

I never said that being color neutral is bad, but there's is no advantage. I really don't think saving 2 moves on the cross is that better.

Maybe it isn't much better if you always start with plain cross and refuse to ever consider XCross or other options, but saving even 1-2 moves clearly is -- at least a bit -- better. There is an advantage.

Well then, is there a disadvantage? The only possibility I see is that you have to remember what color(s) you've used, but that's just FUD. With practice you don't need to pay any attention to it.

 

[KConny]

Yellow cross:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JqFFXs0RAnI

Almost:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hh8kOOYCnys

 

[brunson]

I never said that being color neutral is bad, but there's is no advantage. I really don't think saving 2 moves on the cross is that better.

Maybe it isn't much better if you always start with plain cross and refuse to ever consider XCross or other options, but saving even 1-2 moves clearly is -- at least a bit -- better. There is an advantage.

Well then, is there a disadvantage? The only possibility I see is that you have to remember what color(s) you've used, but that's just FUD. With practice you don't need to pay any attention to it.

Looking at my amateur color neutral results and Lucas' expert single color results, I think there's an interesting hypothesis that may be drawn. The *theoretical* advantage is only 1 or 2 moves, but in practice a theoretical 5 move cross will be suboptimally executed in 6 or 7 moves, or fingertricked into a longer (but possibly faster) solve.

Lucas did 7 of his 12 crosses in 7 or more moves. According to Lars' numbers a 7 or 8 move cross should only less than 20% of the time for a single color solve. Johannes showed that even though I managed to stay under 8 moves in all my crosses, I'm not solving them optimally either.

So, it could be hypothesized that a fair amount of the time the cross is solved suboptimally and a theoretical 1-2 twist advantage may become 2-3, or maybe 2-4. Even at a blazing 9 tps that could approach a significant fraction of a second and mean the difference between a really awesome solve and a new worlds record.

But until we have a color neutral world record, the single or opposite color cross solvers will always have that as ammunition.

I *really* can't say which argument is correct, I just happen to be color neutral because of my ignorance when I started solving, I'm purely speculating on what may be derived from what we've observed in this limited and unscientific experiment.

 

[Lucas Garron]

Okay, please don't use my results as "expert" values. I'm not even really sub-15, and my cross is horrible. I just did it for fun, trying to follow my normal approach (which includes such things as xcross).
Someone like Erik (who also does opp-color) should give you much better values. Maybe Edouard, if he finds this thread. Or Yu Nakajima.

Dene: Good try. Not working.

About fingertrick metric: I've considered a few things by attributing a value to "smooth" (RU') moves over non-smooth (sharp?) moves (RU). Double turns get in the way, and it would be a very subjective and experimental/empirical rating, but a simple system like that might already offer a good discrimination of finger-trick-iness.

 

[martijn_cube]

i think oppisite color solving could be very usefull. when white is bad great chance yellow is alot better. i noticed that when solving the minx, you learn to be more color natural. but with the 3x3 i find it more difficult. i just keep focussing on the white cubies

 

[Hadley4000]

So more or less, it's not really THAT much of an advntage?

 

[Dene]

EDIT: I should add, with Lucas' comment, that what hasn't been analysed is the finger-friendliness of crosses. I would be extremely interested to know what the chances are of getting a finger friendly cross in colour-neutrality compared to single or opposite cross colour is.

I would be extremely interested to see a solid definition of finger-friendliness of move sequences. Until someone comes up with one, using the number of moves is good enough for me and I'm willing to believe that shorter move sequences are, on average, better than longer ones.

Yes, that's the problem. But I still don't think number of moves is a sufficient explanation of easiness - as I explained before, the relationship is most unlikely to be linear, and if we don't know what exactly the relationship is (if one even exists) then it is extremely difficult to make any assumptions off move count alone.

For the scrambles:
1) White: 5 (f2 u') R' (u') U' R' F D

2) Green: 5 (f') U' R (r') D U L2

3) White: 6 (CE pair conserved) (f') U2 (r) L' U (r') L U L

4) Red: 5 (f) R D L D R2

5) Red: 7 (f) L' U2 F' L (u') D' R' D

6) Green: 6 (r') D' R' F' (u' f) U (r') L' U

7) White: 6 (X-cross) (f2) D2 R2 D' (u') L2 F2 L'

8) Orange: 5 (f' u2) D L U2 F' (u') L2

9) Red: 6 (f) R' D L F' L2 D'

A) (what happened to 10??) Blue: 9 (X-cross + CE pair) (r u) U (r') R U' (r) R2 F2 L U' L' D

B) Yellow: 7 (u) R' F R U' L2 (u') U' L2

C) White: 5 (f2) R' L' U2 (u') R' F

 

[Lucas Garron]

i noticed that when solving the minx, you learn to be more color natural.

You know, most fast minx solvers make sure to use the same color order every time to aid recognition?

(And I do, too, even if I'm not even sub-2...)

 

[fanwuq]

I've been doing some fewest moves solves recently. I've been color neutral and building blocks and finishing F2L with partial edge control (not optimal, just some move canceling with 2 look OLL) and finish with PLL. I noticed I can get F2L done always in the range 17-33 average at about 25 and 2 look last layer to finish. So that I can average about 45-50 moves. When speed solving, this number climbs to 60+ moves so color neutral does somewhat contribute to this. However I've noticed that I get a 2x1x1 block, I tend to use it with either white or yellow still as the D face unless I see some really nice blocks I can use for other colors. F2L pair recognition is my main problem speed solving color neutral.
Average in the low 40s with orange, blue, red, green.
I used to do Color neutral BLD, but everyone says that is bad.

 

[brunson]

A) (what happened to 10??) Blue: 9 (X-cross + CE pair) (r u) U (r') R U' (r) R2 F2 L U' L' D

It's hex. 2 digits messed up my indentation. ;-)

Thanks for those cross solves, I am definitely going to go back through each of those scrambles, figure out my crosses on each of those colors, then learn from yours.

 

[Dene]

Oh lol. Maybe I'm not the best to learn off >.< . Just because I'm colour netural, it shouldn't matter. I'd strongly recommend learning off Erik, Harris or Yu, if possible. Also, becaus ethey're restricted in which colour they can use, there will be more variety in their crosses. I think you'll find mine are full of familiar patterns and annoying cube rotations.

 

[martijn_cube]

i noticed that when solving the minx, you learn to be more color natural.

You know, most fast minx solvers make sure to use the same color order every time to aid recognition?

(And I do, too, even if I'm not even sub-2...)

yeah that's true. but if your a pro on the minx you know the whole color scheme. but as a beginner, you have to learn to do the f2l with different colors.

 

[Thompson]

Rowe Hessler is colour neutral I think. He is very fast.

 

[ostracod]

I am semi color neutral... If you have read my thread, you'll know that I use the Supercritical method. I always form the same colored blocks, but then after those steps I solve any edge and corner-edge pairs that I want.

 

[MTGjumper]

Thompson, are you just trying to bump every topic discussing colour neutrality?

 

[Ryanrex116]

I am color neutral on all of the cubes 2-5 except for the 4x4. I don't have any v-cubes.

 

[Lord Voldemort]

I'm always do a white cross, but recently I've started looking to yellow to see if it offers a slightly easier cross.

 

[ukrcuber]

When is it time to become color neutral?

subj) my current averages are near 27-28 sec. should i start being color neutral when i'll get sub-20 averages, or it's ok to start right now?

 

[dannyz0r]

If you want to be color neutral you can do it whenever. You don't have to be color neutral to get fast times.