[Help Thread] Colour Neutral Discussion and Help

I never thought getting opposite color neutral would be so damn hard. I practiced only yellow a ton until I got sub 15 averages with it(my usual average). Changing the color during a session is what really throws me off sometimes. At first, I'd build a cross on the wrong side sometimes. Or I did the wrong pairs. It got better but it still took me a month!
Now it's finally sinking in for the most part, but I still sometimes just freeze on yellow. It's strange, I usually I have an edge bias: I spot an edge and keep it in mind while I search the corner and watch it/figure out where it'll go. When solving on yellow, that sometimes just doesn't work and I can't spot the edges, even though they're obviously the same. Maybe I'm still concentrating too much on yellow sometimes?
Also a bit strange is that on yellow, I have much more pauses generally, but I can still pull off times equal to what I would get solving white. That is, if I don't get lost like I described before.
I have to say though, it's totally worth it! Having a crappy cross, settling for a better yellow one and getting good times with it is satisfying :)
But based on my problem with learning even yellow, I'll never go for full neutrality though. I don't think it's even possible for me, let alone worth the trouble.

I think my problem is that for more than 10 years, I've been solving the cube on white. It was the default color and it made sense to me to use it. The website I learned from had all the pictures with a cube solved on blue, and I thought it was "wrong" and learned on white.
That color filter has probably become so strong that even yellow is/was a big struggle for me.
 
I want to report a personal success! I got a 15.31 color neutral average 10 of 12 tonight. This is my second low 15 average in a week using color neutral. It's not my color neutral pb average, but I am getting averages around what I used to get when I was opposite color neutral more and more often! Let's hope this keeps up! I can't wait to get consistent sub-15 color neutral averages. Right now I get a sub-15 color neutral average about once a month.

Nilsibert said:
I think my problem is that for more than 10 years, I've been solving the cube on white. It was the default color and it made sense to me to use it. The website I learned from had all the pictures with a cube solved on blue, and I thought it was "wrong" and learned on white.
That color filter has probably become so strong that even yellow is/was a big struggle for me.
Click to expand...

I can relate very much to your post. I was white cross only for about 6 years before I attempted to switch to opposite color neutral. I was then opposite color neutral for about 6 years after that and it was great! Opposite color neutral's real power comes from the fact that your F2L edges are always the same. Over time this was always my anchor and what helped me to keep it all straight. After enough practice you will stop solving F2L pairs to the wrong spot, or solving the cross edges around the opposite colored center. It definitely takes some getting used to, but I can say from experience that you have totally made the right decision to try to switch to opposite color neutral!
 
For me, I just started training CN (one colour for a week, then another colour), but got strayed and started doing other colours about 2 weeks in. So I learnt CN naturally, which I think improved my cross spotting and also pushing me further on the edge of...


Sub 20
 
I was working for about a week, but fell off. I felt my look ahead on white cross was getting much worse. Yellow is not as bad. I've had some great solves on yellow cross and I think I will just focus on that.

Instead of doing a big switch (which most people seem to propose) has anyone just thrown in a non-main cross now and then slowly becoming more neutral?
 
I think it's safe to say that I am sub-16 color neutral now! Yay! :D

15.93 average of 50 solves

Solves 32 through 43 make a 14.82 average 10/12

I'm also proud that not a single time was 20 seconds or above. That's quite an accomplishment for me lately. I also am excited that I never took a mediocre white/yellow cross over a better non-white/yellow cross at times when it looked like the overall average might not be sub-16. This tells me that I'm starting to trust my non-white/yellow cross colors enough to choose them even when the pressure is on and it could matter toward my average! That's a good sign!

I'd say that I'm within a second or less of my opposite color neutral times before switching to color neutral. Slowly but surely getting back to my old speed. :D

50: 00:17.69 x
49: 00:18.64 x
48: 00:14.48 x
47: 00:17.33 x
46: 00:15.85 x
45: 00:16.52 x
44: 00:15.78 x
43: 00:12.61 x
42: 00:15.90 x
41: 00:13.46 x
40: 00:17.85 x
39: 00:16.29 x
38: 00:13.01 x
37: 00:14.48 x
36: 00:12.60 x
35: 00:15.78 x
34: 00:16.32 x
33: 00:15.25 x
32: 00:15.09 x
31: 00:19.23 x
30: 00:16.20 x
29: 00:17.41 x
28: 00:16.83 x
27: 00:14.06 x
26: 00:17.19 x
25: 00:16.51 x
24: 00:16.05 x
23: 00:18.08 x
22: 00:14.71 x
21: 00:17.53 x
20: 00:17.17 x
19: 00:16.44 x
18: 00:13.31 x
17: 00:16.44 x
16: 00:15.49 x
15: 00:13.47 x
14: 00:14.72 x
13: 00:15.20 x
12: 00:14.79 x
11: 00:14.13 x
10: 00:16.19 x
9: 00:16.75 x
8: 00:13.03 x
7: 00:15.87 x
6: 00:15.01 x
5: 00:15.53 x
4: 00:16.60 x
3: 00:19.02 x
2: 00:19.14 x
1: 00:19.31 x
 
cmhardw said:
I think it's safe to say that I am sub-16 color neutral now! Yay! :D

15.93 average of 50 solves

Solves 32 through 43 make a 14.82 average 10/12

I'm also proud that not a single time was 20 seconds or above. That's quite an accomplishment for me lately. I also am excited that I never took a mediocre white/yellow cross over a better non-white/yellow cross at times when it looked like the overall average might not be sub-16. This tells me that I'm starting to trust my non-white/yellow cross colors enough to choose them even when the pressure is on and it could matter toward my average! That's a good sign!

I'd say that I'm within a second or less of my opposite color neutral times before switching to color neutral. Slowly but surely getting back to my old speed. :D

50: 00:17.69 x
49: 00:18.64 x
48: 00:14.48 x
47: 00:17.33 x
46: 00:15.85 x
45: 00:16.52 x
44: 00:15.78 x
43: 00:12.61 x
42: 00:15.90 x
41: 00:13.46 x
40: 00:17.85 x
39: 00:16.29 x
38: 00:13.01 x
37: 00:14.48 x
36: 00:12.60 x
35: 00:15.78 x
34: 00:16.32 x
33: 00:15.25 x
32: 00:15.09 x
31: 00:19.23 x
30: 00:16.20 x
29: 00:17.41 x
28: 00:16.83 x
27: 00:14.06 x
26: 00:17.19 x
25: 00:16.51 x
24: 00:16.05 x
23: 00:18.08 x
22: 00:14.71 x
21: 00:17.53 x
20: 00:17.17 x
19: 00:16.44 x
18: 00:13.31 x
17: 00:16.44 x
16: 00:15.49 x
15: 00:13.47 x
14: 00:14.72 x
13: 00:15.20 x
12: 00:14.79 x
11: 00:14.13 x
10: 00:16.19 x
9: 00:16.75 x
8: 00:13.03 x
7: 00:15.87 x
6: 00:15.01 x
5: 00:15.53 x
4: 00:16.60 x
3: 00:19.02 x
2: 00:19.14 x
1: 00:19.31 x
Click to expand...

Cograts :) Hearing that I am tempted once again to try to become color neutral..
I'm still getting used to opposite color neutrality. Today I had an interesting thing happen: I solved on yellow and forgot after 3 pairs. I thought I was solving white, but realised that I've been correctly solving yellow. Pretty much mindlessly. I would guess that's a good sign :)
 
Nilsibert said:
Cograts :) Hearing that I am tempted once again to try to become color neutral..
I'm still getting used to opposite color neutrality. Today I had an interesting thing happen: I solved on yellow and forgot after 3 pairs. I thought I was solving white, but realised that I've been correctly solving yellow. Pretty much mindlessly. I would guess that's a good sign :)
Click to expand...

Thank you! I'm very excited to be showing progress again on my switch to CN.

If you decide to continue on to full color neutrality then I think that's a good choice, too. For me, opposite color neutrality was the right choice for a few years, so do what feels right. All my personal best times and averages on 3x3x3 are with opposite color neutrality, which is proof that if you switch and stick with it that you can surpass your old times. I had switched from white cross only and over time broke all of my old pb times.

As for your experience with solving on yellow then forgetting after three pairs, that is definitely a good sign :) At my peak (I was opposite color neutral then), if you asked me immediately after a solve which cross color I had solved, I would have to think about it. Eventually you will find that your point of reference for viewing the cube becomes the 4 F2L colors, and white and yellow become so interchangeable to you that immediately after a solve you may sometimes have no idea which cross color you solved. That's the long term goal with opposite color neutral, and if you stick with it I can assure you that you will get there and that it feels really cool when you do :)

What helped me get there was to stop thinking of white/yellow as my "cross" colors and to start thinking about, during F2L, "Is green to the right of red?" or "Is red to the right of green?" Think of the cube in terms of the relative orders of the 4 F2L colors and stop caring about white and yellow entirely. White/Yellow are close enough in shade that you can almost imagine that they are the "same" color during your F2L solve, and spotting pairs really becomes about spotting the four F2L colors, which never change.

Good luck with your switch to whichever form of color neutral you decide on!
 
cmhardw said:
What helped me get there was to stop thinking of white/yellow as my "cross" colors and to start thinking about, during F2L, "Is green to the right of red?" or "Is red to the right of green?" Think of the cube in terms of the relative orders of the 4 F2L colors and stop caring about white and yellow entirely. White/Yellow are close enough in shade that you can almost imagine that they are the "same" color during your F2L solve, and spotting pairs really becomes about spotting the four F2L colors, which never change.
Click to expand...

I tried switching to dual color neutral a while ago (well not really TRIED but I did some solves that way) and the worst problem for me was that after years of solving white cross only my brain has learned to TOTALLY ignore all yellow pieces during F2L since I don't need them... What probably makes the problem worse is that I almost always find F2L corner first and then the edge that goes with it. That means that my brain automatically try to track every white sticker on the cube. So when I tried solving yellow on bottom my brain just kept tracking last corners and ignoring automatically all yellow corners :D not good...
 
tseitsei said:
I tried switching to dual color neutral a while ago (well not really TRIED but I did some solves that way) and the worst problem for me was that after years of solving white cross only my brain has learned to TOTALLY ignore all yellow pieces during F2L since I don't need them... What probably makes the problem worse is that I almost always find F2L corner first and then the edge that goes with it. That means that my brain automatically try to track every white sticker on the cube. So when I tried solving yellow on bottom my brain just kept tracking last corners and ignoring automatically all yellow corners :D not good...
Click to expand...

I agree that your brain does learn to ignore the yellow stickers and thus the yellow corners when solving F2L. If you think in terms of the four F2L colors, though, then the yellow/green/red corner and the white/green/red corner are almost identical except that the order of green/red is different on each corner.

For example, going clockwise around the corner we have yellow/green/red and we have white/red/green. If you ignore the distinction between yellow/white (rename both yellow and white colors as "MEH") then the two corners are: MEH/green/red and MEH/red/green.

So during F2L you would know that either red is to the right of green (yellow cross) or green is to the right of red (white cross). I don't actually think in terms of the cross color as I don't care really about yellow or white, they are both color "MEH" to me during F2L. What I do care about is the order of the F2L colors.

So for example, let's say green is the front face and red is the right face. I leave it to you to figure out which cross color that is, because remember that I don't care about cross color when solving dual neutral. Since red is to the right of green, then the red/green edge is "good" if the green sticker is up, because then I can do a R U' R' insert (or some other insert in RUL moves only). Let's focus on the R U' R' insert to the FR F2L slot. If the red sticker is on the side and the green sticker is up, then this piece has to pair with the MEH/green/red corner. Think about this. If the MEH/green/red corner is at UFL with the MEH color at LUF, then that means that the green sticker is at UFL and the red sticker is at FLU. This pairs my MEH/green/red corner with the green/red edge such that R U' R' correctly solves the pair to the FR F2L slot.

The thinking is more fluid and organic than that during a real dual neutral F2L solve, but basically if cross is white (I would say that green is to the right of red) then I would never pair a yellow/green/red corner with my green/red edge, because an R U' R' insert would put the order of my green/red in the corner/edge pair to be switched from the actual centers green and red. Notice that I don't really think about the yellow or the white the whole time - I just pair such that the green/reds on the corner match the edge so that both can be inserted such that the order of their green/reds matches the order of the green and red centers.

It's harder to put into words than the actual thought process goes, but that's how to differentiate the colors during F2L while simultaneously effectively ignoring the white/yellow stickers. This is what helped me to become fluently dual color neutral.
 
cmhardw said:
Thank you! I'm very excited to be showing progress again on my switch to CN.

If you decide to continue on to full color neutrality then I think that's a good choice, too. For me, opposite color neutrality was the right choice for a few years, so do what feels right. All my personal best times and averages on 3x3x3 are with opposite color neutrality, which is proof that if you switch and stick with it that you can surpass your old times. I had switched from white cross only and over time broke all of my old pb times.

As for your experience with solving on yellow then forgetting after three pairs, that is definitely a good sign :) At my peak (I was opposite color neutral then), if you asked me immediately after a solve which cross color I had solved, I would have to think about it. Eventually you will find that your point of reference for viewing the cube becomes the 4 F2L colors, and white and yellow become so interchangeable to you that immediately after a solve you may sometimes have no idea which cross color you solved. That's the long term goal with opposite color neutral, and if you stick with it I can assure you that you will get there and that it feels really cool when you do :)

What helped me get there was to stop thinking of white/yellow as my "cross" colors and to start thinking about, during F2L, "Is green to the right of red?" or "Is red to the right of green?" Think of the cube in terms of the relative orders of the 4 F2L colors and stop caring about white and yellow entirely. White/Yellow are close enough in shade that you can almost imagine that they are the "same" color during your F2L solve, and spotting pairs really becomes about spotting the four F2L colors, which never change.

Good luck with your switch to whichever form of color neutral you decide on!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips, I already have sessions where it actually starts to feel natural to switch around all the time. It can't be too long before I'm completely comfortable with the 2 colors such that I won't have a preference anymore. Looking forward to it :)
I'll keep going like that, and who knows, maybe at some point I'll try to go a step further.


tseitsei said:
I tried switching to dual color neutral a while ago (well not really TRIED but I did some solves that way) and the worst problem for me was that after years of solving white cross only my brain has learned to TOTALLY ignore all yellow pieces during F2L since I don't need them... What probably makes the problem worse is that I almost always find F2L corner first and then the edge that goes with it. That means that my brain automatically try to track every white sticker on the cube. So when I tried solving yellow on bottom my brain just kept tracking last corners and ignoring automatically all yellow corners :D not good...
Click to expand...


Just keep at it! Look at me, solving 3x3s for more than 10 years, always on white. Didn't even consider that people solved on other colors until I started speedcubing and joined this forum. I've gotten much better at it!
I honestly think that if I can accomplish that, anybody can. It takes time, but you'll get it and you'll be glad you took the time and put in the effort :)
 
2/7/15 - first day of blue/green cross practice (I only solved white/yellow before this)

100 solves -
single: 10.18, mo3: 12.99, avg5: 13.28, avg12: 14.33, avg50: 15.82, avg100: 16.10

150 more solves later in the day (listing PBs)
mo3: 12.92, avg5: 13.04, avg12: 13.66, avg50: 15.08, avg100: 15.33

250 solves total

2/8/15 - second day of blue/green solves - attempt at not being inconsistent

avg50: 14.95, avg100: 15.29

175 more solves

mo3: 11.93, avg5: 11.93 (lolwut), avg12: 13.45, avg50: 14.54, avg100: 14.90

275 solves total
 
cmhardw said:
Wow! Great progress! What were you averaging before you switched? Your pb in competition is 12.50, but I'm guessing that you're faster than that at home?

Nice progress! I hope the transition is easy for you!
Click to expand...

Thanks! I was averaging sub 13, usually about mid-12s, so my competition average was pretty normal for me. I guess I should update my signature :P

I hope to be fluent with blue and green cross in 2 months, but that is going to take tons of practice given my speed with white and yellow already.
 
Last edited:
2/9/15 Blue/Green Cross Integration

singles: 9.34 (fullstep :o)

I also managed to get a 9.39 with an OLL skip.

14.47 avg50

14.88 avg100

Pretty productive day, towards the end of the session I got a bit distracted. This average could've been slightly better. I am also getting more and more used to looking for blue and green pieces as well as the f2l colours.

I may do more solves later.

EDIT: Oops, I forgot that it's not 2014 anymore
 
So after a few weeks I am giving up. My times have gotten a ton better but my white cross is always at least a second or two faster. I'm going to focus more on new algorithms and maybe learning a new method all together.
 
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