[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[mDiPalma]

i guess i should actually finish project PLL skip, since i've been putting it off out of laziness for months

hush you, stop laughing at me Matt

-_-

i'll review too

 

[nickvu2]

Are there any ZZers going to worlds besides me and asmallkitten?
On a semi-related note, I think that we really should compile an updated list of zz cubers and have a mod edit the first post with our updates.

I'll be there!

 

[uvafan]

I'll be going! I average 21-22 seconds, so shouldn't even make round 2. Still looking forward to it.

I'll be there!

Cool! Look forward to seeing you two and asmallkitten there and exchanging tips and tricks, etc.

 

[TDM]

Am I the only one who frequently changes orientation? I started with Y/B as most people did, then changed to Y/O because my cube at the time was very bad and had uneven sides, then to G/O (can't remember why), then back to Y/B because all the 2GLL algorithms on the internet show Yellow on U, and now I'm doing EOLine on O/B and changing orientation half way through solves to Y/B to make F2L easier with OH... and I've only done ~900 ZZ solves in total.

 

[Username]

Am I the only one who frequently changes orientation? I started with Y/B as most people did, then changed to Y/O because my cube at the time was very bad and had uneven sides, then to G/O (can't remember why), then back to Y/B because all the 2GLL algorithms on the internet show Yellow on U, and now I'm doing EOLine on O/B and changing orientation half way through solves to Y/B to make F2L easier with OH... and I've only done ~900 ZZ solves in total.

Yes

 

[cubingawsumness]

Cool! Look forward to seeing you two and asmallkitten there and exchanging tips and tricks, etc.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaah I wish I was going

Am I the only one who frequently changes orientation? I started with Y/B as most people did, then changed to Y/O because my cube at the time was very bad and had uneven sides, then to G/O (can't remember why), then back to Y/B because all the 2GLL algorithms on the internet show Yellow on U, and now I'm doing EOLine on O/B and changing orientation half way through solves to Y/B to make F2L easier with OH... and I've only done ~900 ZZ solves in total.

I can't speak for others, but I get very confused when I switch orientations (even from something like y/b to w/g).

 

[a small kitten]

I'm axis neutral

Sometimes I can't decide which front to use.

 

[solvelecewbe]

Just a random question; how much will my times increase switching from CFOP to ZZ, and when will they start to decrease, if i practice, let's say 1 hour everyday? Btw, i average around 27-28 secs with CFOP.

I went from 23-24 seconds with CFOP to 40 with ZZ; still at 40, made the switch a few days ago.

 

[ryn ball]

Hello ZZ solvers I checked ZZ-porky it was fun. Is there any updates about this approach http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nk-for-ZZ-d-(it-sucks-but-it-still-works!-D)? Blah generates awesome algs to correct the corner permutations but still the main problem is recognition (I think).
After trial and error (applying inverses of every swap on a solved cube, taking notes about position, etc.) I came up with a recognition I know it is kinda raw/rough.

From Blah's idea:
ULF=1
UFR=2
UBR=3
UBL=4

To swap nothing: R U' R'
To swap 1 and 2: U' L' U R U' R' L or B' R U' R' U B
To swap 2 and 3: U R U L' U R' U' L
To swap 3 and 4: y L' U' L F R U' R' F'
To swap 4 and 1: R U2 L' U R' U' L
To swap diagonal corners: L' U2 R U R' U2 L

Few terms (Y/B orientation for the examples)

1) good means 2 corners are in good position with each other in terms of color both corners have 1 same color(ignore top color).
Ex.
red-green-yellow at 3 and red-blue-yellow at 2
red-green--yellow at 4 and red-blue-yellow at 3

2) bad means 2 corners are swap with each other in terms of color both corners have 1 same color(ignore top color).
Ex.
red-blue-yellow at 3 and red-green-yellow at 2
red-blue-yellow at 4 and red-green-yellow at 3

3) diagonal means 2 corners are in diagonal relationship with each other in terms of color both corners have opposite colors(ignore top color).
Ex.
red-green-yellow at 3 and orange-blue-yellow at 2
red-green-yellow at 4 and orange-blue-yellow at 3


Here's the recognition:
Look at 4 and 3 determine if diagonal, bad, or good then look at 3 and 2 determine if diagonal, bad, or good. To simplify things a scheme was shown bellow.



Column 1 shows the recognition for 4,3 positions while columns 2-4 shows the recognition for 3,2 positions. The swap pattern are given within the scheme and the algs are given above, no means no swap. N/A not applicable or doesn't exist (I think )

Still atm I don't have easy mnemonics to memo them easily instead a scheme was deviced. If there is something wrong pls comment

For R U R' insertion
Recognition: Look at 1 and 4 determine if diagonal, bad, or good then look at 4 and 3 determine if diagonal, bad, or good.

(1,4) + (4,3) = swap pattern

diagonal + bad = no swap
diagonal + diagonal = diagonal swap

bad + diagonal = 1,2 swap
bad + bad = 1,4 swap

good + good = 2,3 swap
good + diagonal = 3,4 swap

Same terminology about bad, good, diagonal, numbering of corners applies but I don't have algs for the swap and I'm noobish in programs generating algs

On the final note we should know by heart our corner permutations on our solving scheme and if anyone generate easy recognition that we can maximize and minimize extra looks please share

 

[makssl6911]

I went from 23-24 seconds with CFOP to 40 with ZZ; still at 40, made the switch a few days ago.

This is kind of exactly what's happening to me, but from 27-28 with CFOP TO 43-45 with ZZ

 

[Xyphos]

What would you guys do if you had this scramble

B2 R2 D R2 D R2 U R2 D2 L2 U2 R' D' B D2 B L R' F U'

I got a 16 for this

Reconstruction :
z2 // inspection
D2 R F D // EOLine / X-EOLine ?
U' R' U R' // Block
L U' L' U L U L' // 1st Pair
U' R U' R' U2 R U' R' // 2nd Pair
F ' r U R' U' r' F R // OLL
U R' U L U2 R U' R' U2 R L U // PLL

 

[porkynator]

z2
D2 R F D
U' R' U R'
L U' L' U L U L'
U' R U' R'
Up to now your solution is really good. I mean, I can't think of anything better that you can really do in a speedsolve. But now you can insert the last pair in this way:
U L' U2 R U2 R' U2 L2
And get an LL skip (U2 to finish)
You can think of that "algorithm" as a corner-edge pairs commutator:
L' Dw2 L as insertion
U2 as interchange
That gives you L' Dw2 L U2 L' Dw2 L U2; if you use U2 instead of Dw2 (which is faster) you get the alg I used.
It can at least get you an easy OLL skip sometimes.
Hope this was useful

 

[mDiPalma]

z2 D2 R F U' R' U R D R2 (xxxeoline 9)

is what I'd do in a speedsolve if I solved in YG

 

[porkynator]

z2 D2 R F U' R' U R D R2 (xxxeoline 9)

is what I'd do in a speedsolve if I solved in YG

Very nice!

 

[Xyphos]

@ porkynator Nice alg ! How do you know when you're going to do that kind of insert ?


@ mDiPalma Woah xxx-EOLine XD I didn't even see that.

 

[porkynator]

@ porkynator Nice alg ! How do you know when you're going to do that kind of insert ?

When every LL piece that is already placed in the LL is oriented, use it and get an OLL skip

 

[solvelecewbe]

What are good ZZ splits for a 20 second solve?

 

[mDiPalma]

What are good ZZ splits for a 20 second solve?

eoline: 5 sec
f2l: 9
ll: 6

 

[TheNextFeliks]

eoline: 5 sec
f2l: 9
ll: 6

I'd say 4-10-6.

 

[elrog]

Would an experienced ZZ solver be able to orient the edges and place all 4 E layer edges in the E layer for the first step of a solve? The E layer edges do not have to be permuted correctly.