Possible 2011 WCA Regulations Changes

[Karth]

I don't see a reason to remove +2 penalty all together, some might argue that a +2 penalty weighs so much more in a 2x2 solve than a 7x7x7, like Dene said:

"the time it takes to do that turn plus a bit of a punishment for not doing it".

On the other hand like hr.mohr pointed out a +2 penalty in a BLD event is rather strange. I've come to this situation a few times while doing BLD at home and everytime I just thought this should've been a DNF.

There is also some strange things allowed under current regulations that would be fixed by removing +2.

There is +2 in all events but fewest moves, even in BLD. If a competitor are unsure if he has made the last M2 in a solve he could just do a R2 at take the +2. And that's in an event about memory.

So IMO +2 should stay, except in BLD where it should be removed.

 

[(X)]

I think the guhong 6colored cube should be legal to use in competitions.
At the moment you are allowed to use cubes with tiles, which can give you just the same advantage.

 

[hr.mohr]

I don't see a reason to remove +2 penalty all together

So you don't think that Olivér has some valid arguments?

Other sports have changed their rules to improve competition like banning of the incredible Speedo swimsuit that has been used to set so many records in swimming. So we could also see it as a way of improving the level of competition by making each solve count more.

I think the guhong 6colored cube should be legal to use in competitions.
At the moment you are allowed to use cubes with tiles, which can give you just the same advantage.

There is a limit on how thick a tile can be (1.5mm) and I don't think that gives the same advantage as the colored GuHong.

 

[Erik]

My suggestions for new regulations or keeping regulations:

- +2 rule: Keep the +2 rule, it's a good rule which has been around for a long time now. Removing it would be unfair to the results of the past, plus it just happens. It's like a yellow card in football or a time penalty at ice-hockey. Though for BLD I would support removing it, as for feet: you are just a n00b if one move takes longer than 2 seconds...
- KO policy Keep it the way it is (all puzzles allowed), the WCA is not the police, it's cool that you can even make your own puzzle and compete with it.

- Team BLD As I recall, the suggestion was not approved last year because of lack of testing and for an incomplete set of rules. I think we did enough testing this year and had some discussion about the rules. To keep cubing a diverse sport I support Team BLD a LOT (social!). I don't have anything against Skewb but it's just another twisty puzzle.

- Removal of a BLD event Competitions have a very full program these days, as well for the organizers as for the delegate and competitors. I think the 3 big BLD events (4BLD 5BLD and multi BLD) are a bit too much. Having a total of 4 BLD events which are all memory sport events and not really Speedcubing events is a bit overdone in my opinion. I'm not saying BLD shouldn't be a part of Speedcubing, but 4 BLD events.... if you like memory sports that much I'd say start memorizing cards (which is a very impressive skill!)

- Removal of the obliged certificate I think it should be free for the organizers to chose their prizes, mostly certificates just cost a lot of ink and paper. Even if you want certificates lets just make one certificate per person with the achievements on it, saves money and also saves the environment...

Display problem
An additional suggestion for the community (I don't have knowledge enough of this) is to ask if someone knows a solution for the stackmat displays, they costs hundreds of $ or € worth of batteries. I think if we can find a solution (different displays, plug them into the powernet?) we save a lot of money which could be spend better as prize money, drinks/food, reduction of registration money, nicer venues, etc.

I think not everyone is aware of this problem.

 

[masterofthebass]

For the display, you just need to rig in a 12V DC power supply if you don't want to use batteries. Its been done on some displays in the US before.

 

[Olivér Perge]

- +2 rule: Keep the +2 rule, it's a good rule which has been around for a long time now. Removing it would be unfair to the results of the past, plus it just happens. It's like a yellow card in football or a time penalty at ice-hockey. Though for BLD I would support removing it, as for feet: you are just a n00b if one move takes longer than 2 seconds...

I see what you mean, but: Changing the regulations shouldn't be that big of a problem. We are always trying to improve, move from the present to a better future. For the record, moving from best of 1 to mean of 3 and moving from mean of 3 to average of 5 was a lot bigger change and yet we made it. The time penalty/yellow card example is good but DNF can apply to them as well.

I don't really get the plus it just happens part. What I am trying to achive is to remove a rule which allows you to be either lazy or just a noob. If someone who fails to do a move with his feet in less than 2 seconds is just a noob, than a professional cuber who risks to get a +2 on a possible 9-10 seconds solve is a what? As I said before it would improve cubing in the eye of a lot of non-cubers (let's face it, there are more non-cubers than cubers), and in my opinion it would be a big milestone in the road of becoming a recognized sport someday.

Letting us finish the solves with "whatever move" we want seems unprofessional. Believe me, if you wanted to avoid the +2 than you would. I remember you failing on getting the WR average like 3 times, and I have to say (no offence, I still do love you! ) that you could get that average with some proper finishes. I also remember someone commenting on your +2 solve: "Too bad. But +2 is only like 60% your fault..." I have to ask: who is reponsible for the rest 40%?

- Team BLD As I recall, the suggestion was not approved last year because of lack of testing and for an incomplete set of rules. I think we did enough testing this year and had some discussion about the rules. To keep cubing a diverse sport I support Team BLD a LOT (social!).

I couldn't agree more on this one. This is also one thing that we should improve in cubing. Becoming more social and showing everyone that cubing is fun and we are not only nerds who can't even communicate to each other.

- Removal of the obliged certificate I think it should be free for the organizers to chose their prizes, mostly certificates just cost a lot of ink and paper. Even if you want certificates lets just make one certificate per person with the achievements on it, saves money and also saves the environment...

I still think that for many cubers the first (and maybe only) certificate is a really big memory! We shouldn't steal that from them. I know, any other presents could be given to the winners, but for you that would be too much of that too. I think we should make certificates optional. The person giving them should simply ask: do you need it? Also, the personal certificate sounds great!

 

[Karth]

So you don't think that Olivér has some valid arguments?

His arguments are good, of course the safety net should stay if the +2 penalty would be removed.

But I just think it's rather harsh to give a DNF for a solve that's only one turn from being solved. A +2 penalty is more resonable and that high no one could use it to their benefit.

 

[Olivér Perge]

But I just think it's rather harsh to give a DNF for a solve that's only one turn from being solved.

It would be harsh if would not have the high level of competitive speedcubing that we have. 4-5 tps is now normal for an average cuber, which means that one move could be done properly in like 0.2 seconds. You decide: spend an extra 0.2 seconds on a solve or get a DNF. Not really a hard choice for me.

 

[RyanReese09]

Many suggestions have already been listed in this thread..but I agree with Oliver on removing the +2 penalty. I never did like it. I agree that it looks pretty bad when you get a +2 penalty and the puzzle isn't even solved and it is accepted as a successful solve attempt.

To be honest +2 penalty is also stupid in BLD, earlier in this thread someone mentioned that someone who is M2 off, and can't remember, can just do R2 and take the penalty. If they can't remember what to do in their solve in its' entirety then they deserve the DNF!

I disagree with Erik in reference to the BLD events. I actually hope to see 6x6x6 BLD happen, and that added as an event (though I don't see that happening anytime in the near future, as not many people are capable of it).

In regards to Erik mentioning certificates, perhaps a way to combine all events won by someone (such as Dan Cohen who wins many events per competition) into one paper would be good, as mentioned it would save paper and more ink!

Just my take on it.

 

[amostay2004]

- Removal of a BLD event Competitions have a very full program these days, as well for the organizers as for the delegate and competitors. I think the 3 big BLD events (4BLD 5BLD and multi BLD) are a bit too much. Having a total of 4 BLD events which are all memory sport events and not really Speedcubing events is a bit overdone in my opinion. I'm not saying BLD shouldn't be a part of Speedcubing, but 4 BLD events.... if you like memory sports that much I'd say start memorizing cards (which is a very impressive skill!)

I disagree. While memorisation is a very important part in big cubes/multi BLD, there is still the solving part which definitely requires speed (which is why there are so many solving methods and people constantly try to find faster algs). And after all, the factor that is used to measure performance is still the solve time, which means it is still a speed event. If we're talking about the old multi BLD event where there is no time limit, I agree that is very dependant on memory rather than any speed. Also, it is the World CUBE Association after all, and not the World SPEEDCUBING Association, why must it only be about speedcubing?

As for taking up too much time in competitions, well, the simple solution is to not have that event if there is no time or resources for it, which is already being done seeing how many competitions do not have big cubes BLD as events.

 

[Bryan]

- Team BLD As I recall, the suggestion was not approved last year because of lack of testing and for an incomplete set of rules. I think we did enough testing this year and had some discussion about the rules. To keep cubing a diverse sport I support Team BLD a LOT (social!). I don't have anything against Skewb but it's just another twisty puzzle.

- Removal of the obliged certificate I think it should be free for the organizers to chose their prizes, mostly certificates just cost a lot of ink and paper. Even if you want certificates lets just make one certificate per person with the achievements on it, saves money and also saves the environment...

Can you point to some set of proposed regulations for TeamBLD? The biggest issue I've seen is making sure the solver can't see with a cardboard sheet while the caller still can. In most competitions, it's been on the honor system because it's unofficial, so it doesn't matter.

I agree with the certificates. I proposed a lot of unnecessary regulations be removed on this thread: http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=899

 

[Stefan]

I don't really get the plus it just happens part. What I am trying to achive is to remove a rule which allows you to be either lazy or just a noob. If someone who fails to do a move with his feet in less than 2 seconds is just a noob, than a professional cuber who risks to get a +2 on a possible 9-10 seconds solve is a what? As I said before it would improve cubing in the eye of a lot of non-cubers (let's face it, there are more non-cubers than cubers), and in my opinion it would be a big milestone in the road of becoming a recognized sport someday.

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPIVafgSkhA#t=39

 

[cmhardw]

My suggestions for new regulations or keeping regulations:

- Removal of a BLD event Competitions have a very full program these days, as well for the organizers as for the delegate and competitors. I think the 3 big BLD events (4BLD 5BLD and multi BLD) are a bit too much. Having a total of 4 BLD events which are all memory sport events and not really Speedcubing events is a bit overdone in my opinion. I'm not saying BLD shouldn't be a part of Speedcubing, but 4 BLD events.... if you like memory sports that much I'd say start memorizing cards (which is a very impressive skill!)

I think the side I take here is probably no surprise to anyone. As some others have said I disagree here. What makes 4 BLD events too much? Why aren't 3 events too much? Or 2? Or 1? As a matter of perspective a lot of current BLD cubers probably think 4 is too few.

I understand the sentiment, and I know some others probably share it. To be honest, if blindcubing events were trimmed enough times I probably would take your suggestion and move over to memory sports competitions. I think that the blindcubing side of speedcubing is the more interesting part of cubing to be honest. I realize that most people would disagree with this, but it is what keeps me currently passionate about it.

So the question remains, what is the compromise? Obviously adding another event is out of the question, but can the community as a whole be happy with 4 BLD events? I think it is a healthy compromise, but I am obviously biased very strongly to one side.

Erik, you know that I respect you, and you are a very great person and you are gracious to the others who are not as elite as you. However, just know that to us BLD cubers this:

...if you like memory sports that much I'd say start memorizing cards (which is a very impressive skill!)

sounds a lot like

If you really like memory sports that much I'd say to gtfo and go to memory sports competitions instead.

 

[qqwref]

I say again like I said last year: remove the +2 penalty. I think it should be either solved state or DNF.

I disagree that this is a good idea, because I've had a 2x2x2 that was loose enough that dropping it from even 10-20 cm would often (about half the time!) cause it to misalign. I didn't know that would happen because I don't normally drop my 2x2 every solve in practice, and by the time I realized it would ruin my average it was too late to find another one. I think it's unfair to give someone a DNF average just because they have a cube that has problems when it is dropped (and keep in mind dropping is *not* a normal function in speedsolving - it's an artificial practice that we have started to make stackmat timing easier). And sure, I could have wasted 0.2 seconds per solve, but why should I have to spend extra time in order to not come in last place?

Last point (and this is the less important): it would finally make it clear for the non cubers and for the media if our cube was solved or not. Trying to explain for every different person why a cube with two moves off is valid is awkward and makes speedcubing look unproffessional.

I agree with this, however.

 

[masterofthebass]

But qq, at my last competition, I had a good chance of getting a good result on my last solve. I went and did the solve fairly fast (for me at least), but almost stopped the timer with a U2 off. I quickly realized this, and went and fixed the puzzle. Of course this made my time a little slower, but I avoided the +2 penalty, keeping my average as a comp PB (raising my rank ~70 spots). Its part of the solving, making sure that the cube is actuallysolved. If you can't account for the state at the end of the solve, then are you really solving it?

 

[qqwref]

masterofthebass: Er, if the cube is in a solved state when you let go, you ARE solving it. Absolutely no question there. But we don't look at it when you let go, we look at it when it stops moving, and that is why we have the +2 rule. Misalignments happen, it's just bad luck, and it's ridiculous to give a DNF for bad luck.

One possible solution would be to have the judge try to figure out (in non-Magic events) whether the cube was solved or not when the competitor let go. So you could say that, if the cube ends up misaligned and was also misaligned when the competitor let go, it's the competitor's fault and thus DNF, but if the cube ends up misaligned but was solved when the competitor let go, it's bad luck and thus +2.

- Removal of the obliged certificate I think it should be free for the organizers to chose their prizes, mostly certificates just cost a lot of ink and paper. Even if you want certificates lets just make one certificate per person with the achievements on it, saves money and also saves the environment...

Making one certificate per person is more difficult because it requires having a printer at the event. If you can do this, great, but it's impractical for many competitions. If you give a separate certificate for each event/placement you can preprint them and then just write the names on them before the awards ceremony.

- Removal of a BLD event Competitions have a very full program these days, as well for the organizers as for the delegate and competitors. I think the 3 big BLD events (4BLD 5BLD and multi BLD) are a bit too much. Having a total of 4 BLD events which are all memory sport events and not really Speedcubing events is a bit overdone in my opinion. I'm not saying BLD shouldn't be a part of Speedcubing, but 4 BLD events.... if you like memory sports that much I'd say start memorizing cards (which is a very impressive skill!)

This is kind of why I think 5x5 BLD should be removed. For me, though, it's not that there are too many BLD events, but rather that 4x4 BLD and 5x5 BLD are very similar - the techniques used are almost the same, and the people who are good at 5x5 BLD are listed in the 4x4 BLD rankings in almost the same order. For competition purposes, I see 5x5 BLD as a version of 4x4 BLD that takes longer and requires a bit more consistency, and I don't really see a need for it any more than there is a need for a 2-cube BLD relay, or a "10 3x3 cubes" speed relay.

 

[cmhardw]

This is kind of why I think 5x5 BLD should be removed. For me, though, it's not that there are too many BLD events, but rather that 4x4 BLD and 5x5 BLD are very similar - the techniques used are almost the same, and the people who are good at 5x5 BLD are listed in the 4x4 BLD rankings in almost the same order. For competition purposes, I see 5x5 BLD as a version of 4x4 BLD that takes longer and requires a bit more consistency, and I don't really see a need for it any more than there is a need for a 2-cube BLD relay, or a "10 3x3 cubes" speed relay.

Yes, but for those of us who like the differences between 4BLD and 5BLD, why should it be removed? Look at my ranking in 4BLD and 5LD, they are very different both in number and in terms of being in the top n-th percentile. I use the same method for both cubes, but it is a very different memory event to do 4BLD compared to 5BLD.

Would those who want the BLD events on the chopping block agree to a different compromise? I personally always do this in competitions I compete in as a courtesy to the speedcubers, but perhaps it should become mandatory. I always do very few speedcubing events, as having organized a few competitions with Andrew Kang and Hadley Sheffield I do know how difficult it can be to run the bigger cube BLD events (but worth it!). If competing in the bigger cubes BLD meant that you were restricted from competing in some or many of the speedcubing events to ease the stress on the organizers, then would that be a healthy compromise? I can guarantee that many of us big cubes BLD people would certainly agree to something like this in order to continue doing the events.

As to the argument that bigger cubes BLD, even if those competitors are not doing speed events, still requires more judges, remember that I have organized these events at competitions too. Andrew, Hadley and I have not always held a full big cube BLD complement for this very reason. In events where there are not enough judges to accommodate this, then don't hold as many (or any) of the bigger cube BLD events.

This solution also allows for the possibility of competing in 2x2-7x7 BLD if the competitor is given the restriction that s/he may compete in NO speedcubing events at all (hey I can dream right?)

 

[Toad]

I had a thought about how to run certain events in the competition I might be running:

Sort of running a two track system. Big BLD events at the same time as some side events (Sq1, Pyra etc.) and each competitor can only compete in one track of events. The challenge I thought with this would be judging the BLD events but then I thought that each person doing Big BLD could pair up with another and they could judge each other.

What do others reckon for this as a compromise on this?

 

[Mike Hughey]

I remember that at some point a while ago, Erik was advocating for removing at least one of the BLD events (as he has done repeatedly for several years), and someone else (I can't remember who - I searched, but couldn't find the exchange) said they would form a separate BLD organization if it ever happened. Erik responded by saying something to the effect of that he thought that was a great idea, since it would allow us BLD cubers to have more fun.

I admit that the thought of having more control to do more BLD events is enticing, but I'm responding to this exchange primarily because I wanted to point out that most of us BLD solvers still think of ourselves as speedcubers (although in some cases, such as mine, particularly bad ones), and we really enjoy going to speedcubing competitions. Chris is actually somewhat fast at 3x3x3, so it applies even more to him. (And then there are people like Ville, who are really fantastic at both.) The social aspect would be terrible if we had to split off - it's much more fun being a part of the regular speedcubing community. And let's face it, memory sports are very different from BLD solving. I've tried memorizing decks of cards, and while I can do it (not very well, but I can do it), it's nowhere near as fun for me as getting to solve a cube when I'm done memorizing. The memory sports that currently exist really don't appeal much to me.

So I really hope we can stay together with some sort of happy compromise. 4x4x4 BLD and 5x5x5 BLD are really every bit as different as 4x4x4 speed and 5x5x5 speed. There's an extra set of commutators you need to know, and the way the memorization and solving interact are a little different. Also, the pacing is so different, typically. BLD solvers don't have that many events still, and it would be nice to keep the ones we have, at least. If we can do some of the compromise things that Chris suggests, can we keep them please?

If I had to give up some events to compete in others, I admit I would be a little disappointed (because I really love doing all of the events!), but I would be willing to compromise. There might be times when I would choose to do speedsolving events instead of BLD events, if I thought it wouldn't hurt BLD cubing and I thought I could really significantly improve my personal bests at speedsolving events on that particular day but not BLD events. But I would probably opt for the BLD events most of the time if I had to choose.

 

[DavidWoner]

Last point (and this is the less important): it would finally make it clear for the non cubers and for the media if our cube was solved or not. Trying to explain for every different person why a cube with two moves off is valid is awkward and makes speedcubing look unproffessional.

I've said before that no decision should ever be made for the benefit of the media or bystanders. Pretty much every professional sport has some rules that don't really make sense to me, but I accept them because the governing body of that sport says that's how it should be. Cubing should be the same way. You are also assuming that everyone wants cubing to be widely recognized, or that it is somehow beneficial. The WCA is not a profit-seeking organization like NFL, MLB, etc. so I fail to see the incentive to increase exposure so badly. Yes, more sponsors means more competitions, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the integrity of our sport and pander to the ignorant public/media in order to get there.