~Phoenix Death~
Legend
There's something that doesn't feel right about that...
Dayan vs. V-Cube Patent Infringement
- Thread starter izovire
- Start date
There's something that doesn't feel right about that...
I know, but if that really did happen the cube would be amazing.
DavidWoner
The Punchmaster
- Joined
- May 7, 2008
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- 3,936
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- Kansas City, MO, USA
- WCA ID
- 2008WONE01
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Any further bashing of v-cubes, verdes, or supporters of either side will result in a ban (length to be determined). Criticism is ok, but only if you have HARD EVIDENCE. Example of such would be pixel's posts about his interactions with ebay, or the earlier link posted to the explanation about the conic structure of v-cubes, etc. Most of you do not have any hard evidence. I would advise you to shut up. This is your warning.
Note: Not reading this post and being ignorant of this announcement is not grounds for reprieve. If you are going to post in a thread about a sensitive topic such as this, you should read all prior discussion.
Edit1: Unless you are a patent lawyer, don't make presumptuous comments about the legitimacy of the patent infringement claim. Speculation is okay, as long as you are not being stupid or disrespectful.
Note: Not reading this post and being ignorant of this announcement is not grounds for reprieve. If you are going to post in a thread about a sensitive topic such as this, you should read all prior discussion.
Edit1: Unless you are a patent lawyer, don't make presumptuous comments about the legitimacy of the patent infringement claim. Speculation is okay, as long as you are not being stupid or disrespectful.
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Kapusta
Regular
Not sure if this has been answered yet, but are guhongs still competition legal? Or are they banned from competition until this whole mess gets sorted out?
musicninja17
Veteran
Yes, they're comp legal...
o2gulo
Veteran
Yeah. GuHong is still legal(i think and i hope so) because Verdes only took guhongs in ebay.
DavidWoner
The Punchmaster
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- Kansas City, MO, USA
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- Visit Channel
Asked and answered. This information is also available if you read the WCA Regulations. Which is what you should have done first.
Please, do not make me add a clause about asking things that have already been asked. We are trying to keep the pointless posts in this thread to a minimum, and if that is what needs to be done, then we'll do it.
da25centz
Veteran
I've had a patent on winged planes for years. Althought I have never made one, and my designs are terrible, Nobody else can build airplanes with wings because I have the patent.
does that make sense to you?
does that make sense to you?
tertius
Regular
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2010
- Messages
- 57
All airfoils are protected and can not be claimed by one party.
Yes it makes sense. I have attempted to file for a patent, it was rejected due to it being filed by another company. They have no prototype and no plans of making it at this point (it is only on paper), yet it is THEIR patent and I can not make it without paying royalties (at best).
Yes it makes sense. I have attempted to file for a patent, it was rejected due to it being filed by another company. They have no prototype and no plans of making it at this point (it is only on paper), yet it is THEIR patent and I can not make it without paying royalties (at best).
Dene
Premium Member
I would like to point out that there are still plenty of good cubes, including Guhongs. As for 4x4, get the Dayan which is clearly superior to the maru.
Fire Cuber
Veteran
LOL.
As for Dayan and Maru, I don't think that all peoples says that Dayan which is clearly superior to the maru.
~Adam~
Legend
If you had simply put less than 2 months in the 1st place such comments wouldn't be made. Yet.
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Toquinha1977
Regular
Preaching to the choir here: On a consumer's standpoint, it's complete weaksauce that V-Cubes will enforce patents for products that aren't even available on the market. This reminds me of Monster Cable, who will go after anyone with the word "Monster" in their product name (Monster Energy Drinks, Monster Mini Golf, Disney's Monsters Inc., etc.). They pretty much own the market on 5x5x5s to 7x7x7s, and even though there are other major manufacturers of 5x5x5s, theirs has pretty much been determined to be the best on the market.
The market for 3x3x3s is very well saturated with dozens of manufacturers (including Rubik's) on the market. With Rubik's being the most well known brand and most widely available, they are going to be the most purchased by the general public, because as speedcubers, we're actually a pretty niche market. When's the last time you went into a Walmart or a ToysRUs and saw a Chinese DIY kit in a plastic bag, hanging on a peg? You haven't. So, how much of a dent can Verdes make if they put the VCube 3 on the market? For starters, It'll cost twice as much as the Rubik's if and when it comes out. As it is, Verdes products are manufactured in Greece, which will give them increased manufacturing costs and longer product turnaround. It'll be pretty tough to meet demand in an already-competitive market.
This is probably why they're doing it. It's infinitely cheaper to wave patents in people's faces than it is to market, manufacture, and distribute product. But, it's clearly backfiring on them. If they would at least update the website (last update: March 2010) and give us actual news on upcoming products, people would be a little more forgiving.
The market for 3x3x3s is very well saturated with dozens of manufacturers (including Rubik's) on the market. With Rubik's being the most well known brand and most widely available, they are going to be the most purchased by the general public, because as speedcubers, we're actually a pretty niche market. When's the last time you went into a Walmart or a ToysRUs and saw a Chinese DIY kit in a plastic bag, hanging on a peg? You haven't. So, how much of a dent can Verdes make if they put the VCube 3 on the market? For starters, It'll cost twice as much as the Rubik's if and when it comes out. As it is, Verdes products are manufactured in Greece, which will give them increased manufacturing costs and longer product turnaround. It'll be pretty tough to meet demand in an already-competitive market.
This is probably why they're doing it. It's infinitely cheaper to wave patents in people's faces than it is to market, manufacture, and distribute product. But, it's clearly backfiring on them. If they would at least update the website (last update: March 2010) and give us actual news on upcoming products, people would be a little more forgiving.
prostx23
Regular
Hi,
I wonder if any actual lawsuits are filed, where they'd be filed. In China? Here in the US? What would US lawyers or judges know from chinese sppeedcubes? And if a suit was sucessfully brought in the US would that simply stop DaYan from selling cubes here, rather then shutting down the company altogether? This is opinion and speculation (this is still allowed right mods?:rolleyes
, but this to me really seems like they are not going to persue shutting down DaYan (I get the feeling that this kind of lawsuit in China is a non starter), or even stop them from making GuHongs... they will simply stop them from being sold in the biggest markets, therefore driving them underground, so to speak.
Mike
I wonder if any actual lawsuits are filed, where they'd be filed. In China? Here in the US? What would US lawyers or judges know from chinese sppeedcubes? And if a suit was sucessfully brought in the US would that simply stop DaYan from selling cubes here, rather then shutting down the company altogether? This is opinion and speculation (this is still allowed right mods?:rolleyes
, but this to me really seems like they are not going to persue shutting down DaYan (I get the feeling that this kind of lawsuit in China is a non starter), or even stop them from making GuHongs... they will simply stop them from being sold in the biggest markets, therefore driving them underground, so to speak.Mike
Zarxrax
Veteran
I believe it is probably a good idea to summarize the known FACTS of this case so far, so that everyone is on the same page. There have been lots of opinions, speculation, and bad information so far.
1. V-cubes filed a patent complaint to ebay to have all guhong (and probably lingyun) auctions removed, on the claim that the cubes violate their patent.
2. Guhong cubes are still available for sale at other locations besides ebay.
3. We don't know if v-cubes has contacted dayan to make them stop production, or if v-cubes has filed a lawsuit with any court of law.
4. Because Paypal is owned by Ebay, small sellers are afraid to sell guhongs through their paypal accounts.
5. Because this has happened right before Christmas, it is causing great harm to the small retailers who sell guhongs.
6. As of yet, V-cubes has not offered any sort of statement or explanation of the situation.
7. Guhong cubes are not officially in violation of V-cubes patent unless a court of law rules in v-cubes favor. Right now, V-cubes is merely claiming that they think guhong is a violation.
8. If the guhong does violate v-cubes patent, then whether or not v-cubes manufactures a 3x3x3 cube has no bearing on the law. Patenting something to prevent other companies from producing it is a valid business move than many companies do all the time.
[Editorial]
I think it's unfortunate that V-cubes has still chosen not to make any sort of statement regarding this situation after several days. If v-cubes are falsely or mistakenly claiming an infringement, then they have caused much damage to both dayan and several small cube sellers. If they are correct and guhong does violate their patent, then I think it is in bad taste to go after small sellers rather than the dayan company.
1. V-cubes filed a patent complaint to ebay to have all guhong (and probably lingyun) auctions removed, on the claim that the cubes violate their patent.
2. Guhong cubes are still available for sale at other locations besides ebay.
3. We don't know if v-cubes has contacted dayan to make them stop production, or if v-cubes has filed a lawsuit with any court of law.
4. Because Paypal is owned by Ebay, small sellers are afraid to sell guhongs through their paypal accounts.
5. Because this has happened right before Christmas, it is causing great harm to the small retailers who sell guhongs.
6. As of yet, V-cubes has not offered any sort of statement or explanation of the situation.
7. Guhong cubes are not officially in violation of V-cubes patent unless a court of law rules in v-cubes favor. Right now, V-cubes is merely claiming that they think guhong is a violation.
8. If the guhong does violate v-cubes patent, then whether or not v-cubes manufactures a 3x3x3 cube has no bearing on the law. Patenting something to prevent other companies from producing it is a valid business move than many companies do all the time.
[Editorial]
I think it's unfortunate that V-cubes has still chosen not to make any sort of statement regarding this situation after several days. If v-cubes are falsely or mistakenly claiming an infringement, then they have caused much damage to both dayan and several small cube sellers. If they are correct and guhong does violate their patent, then I think it is in bad taste to go after small sellers rather than the dayan company.
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choza244
Veteran
Oh, I didn't know that this thread was opened again, I will post this here because it was here where I wanted to post my opinion but in that moment the thread was closed.
This is my point of view of this situation and I just hope that the others respect my opinion.
From what I can see, the mechanism of the DaYan GuHong is different from the mechanisms of the V-cubes, is different from the V-cube 3 (that is in the patents) and is different from the other V-cubes (5, 6, and 7). I really don't know exactly why Verdes is claiming that was copied or why the GuHong is infringing their patents but from what I can see the design is very different.
I agree that a lot of people have not realized the effort of Verdes when he designed the V-cube mechanisms and that he paid a lot of money to patent his invention. But I also think that almost anyone have realized that the designer of the GuHong also had to work a lot designing the mechanism and making it work properly, so why anybody think that the designer of the GuHong also did a great effort to design a good mechanism? because from my point of view, even if the designer was inspired in the V-cube mech, it did a completelly new and different design, so for me it was not copied and I really think that the people can see that it was not copied.
What I do not agree is the way the V-cube company is doing this things, first if they think the GuHong is infringing their patents they have all the rights to fight, but for me it should have been like making a demand to the Dayan company (legally) and not trying to remove their products from the market before the legal veredict, like they are doing now.
Apart of that and like I said, for me that legal veredic would be that the design of the GuHong is not infringing the patents in any way so it could continue being selled, but that's just my opinion, and from my point of view is not coincidence that the V-cube company is trying to remove the GuHongs just before christmas, for me is just a dirty move, and is just an attempt to eradicate a good product that is selling well these days. (why they didn't do the same with the YJ products first?)
So that's why I do not agree with Verdes actions and that's why i decided that if they keep with this situation i will not buy any of their products anymore.
Thanks if you took the time to read this and sorry for my english
From what I can see, the mechanism of the DaYan GuHong is different from the mechanisms of the V-cubes, is different from the V-cube 3 (that is in the patents) and is different from the other V-cubes (5, 6, and 7). I really don't know exactly why Verdes is claiming that was copied or why the GuHong is infringing their patents but from what I can see the design is very different.
I agree that a lot of people have not realized the effort of Verdes when he designed the V-cube mechanisms and that he paid a lot of money to patent his invention. But I also think that almost anyone have realized that the designer of the GuHong also had to work a lot designing the mechanism and making it work properly, so why anybody think that the designer of the GuHong also did a great effort to design a good mechanism? because from my point of view, even if the designer was inspired in the V-cube mech, it did a completelly new and different design, so for me it was not copied and I really think that the people can see that it was not copied.
What I do not agree is the way the V-cube company is doing this things, first if they think the GuHong is infringing their patents they have all the rights to fight, but for me it should have been like making a demand to the Dayan company (legally) and not trying to remove their products from the market before the legal veredict, like they are doing now.
Apart of that and like I said, for me that legal veredic would be that the design of the GuHong is not infringing the patents in any way so it could continue being selled, but that's just my opinion, and from my point of view is not coincidence that the V-cube company is trying to remove the GuHongs just before christmas, for me is just a dirty move, and is just an attempt to eradicate a good product that is selling well these days. (why they didn't do the same with the YJ products first?)
So that's why I do not agree with Verdes actions and that's why i decided that if they keep with this situation i will not buy any of their products anymore.
Thanks if you took the time to read this and sorry for my english
FatBoyXPC
Veteran
Have there actually been Lingyuns removed from eBay? I remember in izovire's and Pixel 6's video that they were unsure if the Lingyun was affected by this infringement claim.
prostx23
Regular
One would think that they would want to go after the LingYun as well, as it's mostly a tweak of the GuHong, I'd think it's strange if they didn't. And if they don't...kinda makes you wonder...
brunson
Veteran
The pope is very old and his turning speed is very slow. Feliks has nothing to worry about.
Zarxrax
Veteran
Well i did a search for lingyun on ebay, and only 1 cube came up. I would think that there would be much more than 1 if ebay hadn't taken any action against it.
