[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

nickvu2 said:
I used Cube Explorer and tested several for each case to find the best ones. Maybe we have different cubing styles; but I found most of them to be fast. Even though some may be long, they are all shorter than the intuitive move count. There are certain cases where you save 7 moves by knowing an alg. But I probably won't bother learning algs that only save 1 move over intuitive phasing.
Click to expand...

I'm curious, how'd you do this with Cube Explorer? Wouldn't it only be able to generate algs for when the edges are not only correclty permuted opposite each other, but *solved* altogether? Maybe I'm missing something...
Anyway, if/when I decide to learn ZZLL, I'll definitely look into this.
 
Anonymous said:
I'm curious, how'd you do this with Cube Explorer? Wouldn't it only be able to generate algs for when the edges are not only correclty permuted opposite each other, but *solved* altogether? Maybe I'm missing something...
Anyway, if/when I decide to learn ZZLL, I'll definitely look into this.
Click to expand...

You can right click a sticker to grey it out if you don't care where that piece ends up in the solve. You can also control click to control orientation. Is that what you're asking?
 
finaly passed my CFOP PB of 24.83 with ZZ at 20.70... so close to sub 20 lol.
my ZZ method is super basic... any sudgestions what to learn next besides basic blockbuilding/Corner Orientation/PLL and mabey a few links to boot :D
 
@Jukuren I would always recommend focusing on EOLine and F2L. The difference between COLL/EPLL and OCLL/PLL is much smaller than the gain you will receive from a good EOLine -> F2L transition, a strong repertoire of blockbuilding skills, and good F2L lookahead.

eastamazonantidote said:
EO is pointless without a different LL system.
Click to expand...
EO gives you much more than just an easier LL.
 
Cride5 said:
@Jukuren I would always recommend focusing on EOLine and F2L. The difference between COLL/EPLL and OCLL/PLL is much smaller than the gain you will receive from a good EOLine -> F2L transition, a strong repertoire of blockbuilding skills, and good F2L lookahead.


EO gives you much more than just an easier LL.
Click to expand...

i agree... i have been working on my EOLine/Blockbuilding a lot... i just thought i was getting close enough to good times to start incorporating some new LL tricks lol

honestly i dont see that big of an advantage to learn COLL other then to use on the cases where you get to LL and your edges are already solved. other wise its still a two look but you gain what? a .61 ave turn advantage (ref cube.crider) but all the extra algs seem like it would slow down your recognition a bit.

what do you think of CLS? seems interesting... i messed with other F2LL methods a bit like WV but the method seemed incomplete. seems like there should be a whole separate set of algs for the RUR' insertion pair as well to avoid the whole pain of having to set up the move... not just the typical RU'R' pair already made in the LL cases. I actually made up a list of those cases and the corner orientations but only about half the algs... i gave up cuz i dont think too many people will use it cuz you have to double the # of algs and cases that WV has to offer as it stands...seems like a lot just to orient 5 corners at a time rather then 4 lol. anyway... im done ranting... maybe good old OCLL/PLL is the way to go rofl... that or phasing/ZBLL... X.X
 
The only LL methods I have practical experience of are OCLL, COLL and ZBLL. I think COLL/EPLL definitely has a recognition advantage over OCLL/PLL, mainly because COLL recognition much simpler than 2-sided PLL, and all-sided PLL just ruins the flow. If you're doing COLL I strongly recommend 2-sided EPLL because it's very easy and will give you very quick recog. Whether COLL has an exec advantage over PLL is not obvious. PLL is a much better developed system than COLL and it seems as though more could be done to find better COLL algs. There's no 'theoretical' reason why COLL should be any better/worse than PLL apart from the slightly lower optimal move-count of COLL.

For me personally ZBLL just wasn't practical, even with a small subset (12 algs). The main problem was lack of use of the algs. They were so rare that I never got enough practice to improve recog/exec time. I don't use the algs any more and they're slowly slipping from memory.

I never dabbled in any of the last-slot based LL methods because they didn't seem to offer any obvious advantage for the extra complexity involved ... with perhaps the exception of Phasing/ZZLL and CPLS/2GLL. If I had more time to throw at cubing I would probably take a serious look at them - ZZLL in particular. Generally though, remember that more algorithms equals less time to practice each one, and also usually more complex recognition/execution.

When you were talking about CLS, did you mean CPLS? CLS is much like WV in that they both have the same goal only with different starting points. In WV you start with a completed C+E pair, and CLS you start with the last F2L edge solved. Both require extra moves to set up, and then a fair number of algs with relatively complex recog to complete.
 
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i could see that...
PLL does hang me up for a sec.
maybe ill work to find better COLL algs :P

in theory ZZLL cool... but even after phasing way too much

i think you have conviced me sir, COLL it is...
 
ZZ Questions

So here are two questions for the ZZ-ers out there.

1. When you start your solve and begin EOLine, do you always start with the cube oriented the same way? Or do you sometimes start with a y or y' (or more correctly, pick up the cube as if you had done a y/y'), then complete the EOLine and do a y/y' before diving into the block building? I really like having the cube in the Line orientation the whole time because I think it helps me transition quicker into block building, but sometimes the finger tricks from that angle are awkward.

2. When you are block building, do you prefer to finish the entire block on the right or left side and then switch to the other side? Or do you just complete whatever blocks you spot? I find that I sometimes hesitate, or even put things in the wrong spot, if I jump back and forth between the left and right sides. Usually if I complete one side first, the opposite side really flies along! Also, in the event one of the two D edges is stuck in a slot on the opposite side, completing the entire side first pops that edge out so the transition to the other side is quick. The problem with always completing one side of course, is that you can find yourself hunting around trying to find the edge and corner that go with the first block.

Just curious to know what other ZZ-ers' experiences/preferences are.
 
@kcwg:

1. - in orientation and mostly with the EOL done on bottom/ sometimes on front

2. -I take the F2l how it comes, but i try to build one block on each side (prefered parallel), but only if its solution is not much longer than filling in one slot...
-finishing one side first is mostly not very good in my mind. the block on the other side could be very strange and flowless... also you can´t use shortcuts for the block and the pair.


@LL-discussion: In my opinion phasing+ zzll is the goal to get... that´s why I learned now ~100/165 algs for it.
 
Thanks Noob. I think part of my comfort with doing one side first probably comes from having a hard time getting away from Fridrich. I tend to view the second side as slots a lot. It still flies along nicely, but I need to force myself into true block building. It's just so tempting if I see the DL or DR edge to dump it into its spot and go Fridrich from there. Must de-program!
 
kcwig said:
So here are two questions for the ZZ-ers out there.

1. When you start your solve and begin EOLine,...

2. When you are block building...

Just curious to know what other ZZ-ers' experiences/preferences are.
Click to expand...

my cube orientation is always the same. I only do cube rotations in LL if an alg calls for it.
and even still there are very few algs i use that have them...

i try not to get too caught up with finishing one side.
i just take what pair is fastest.
one thing i do during F2L is say i make a pair in the BLD/BL slot and its just a simple LU'L'...
ill just do Lu'L2 instead to get my next pair ready
 
I'm fairly new to ZZ and I believe it has a great potential but because of it lack of popularity there isn't that much on the web about it compare to fridrichs and petrus. I want to know is there alg or something out there for ZZ-d which turns the cube into a RU group after finishing the 2x2x3 block. There only meant to be an extra two moves max.
 
hic0057 said:
I'm fairly new to ZZ and I believe it has a great potential but because of it lack of popularity there isn't that much on the web about it compare to fridrichs and petrus. I want to know is there alg or something out there for ZZ-d which turns the cube into a RU group after finishing the 2x2x3 block. There only meant to be an extra two moves max.
Click to expand...
There are various methods, but there is no one magical "alg."
learning to permute the corners in one step will get you into a 2-gen state, but otherwise no one has gone straight from 3-gen to 2-gen right after the 2x2x3.
However, check out my CPLS thread (and the wiki) which you may or may not be interested in.
 
StachuK1992 said:
There are various methods, but there is no one magical "alg."
learning to permute the corners in one step will get you into a 2-gen state, but otherwise no one has gone straight from 3-gen to 2-gen right after the 2x2x3.
However, check out my CPLS thread (and the wiki) which you may or may not be interested in.
Click to expand...

Did you ever fix those CPLS algs which didn't work?
 
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